GT40 Builder

Hi guys,

Cuatrokoop siggested I post this inquiry here, and thought that fusiler (sp?) or Squidx9 might be able to help.

I'm building a GT40 replica that will have big sticky 335-series tires out back and it'll be powered by a 450 hp V8. As such, I'm concerned about the longevity of the 016 gearbox (fitted with a Quaife LSD) that I intend to use. Although hard data is sketch, the few GT40 guys and 944 guys who I've heard of who've managed to blow these gearboxes up have indicated the ring gear usually fails.

I suspect that an external oil-cooling system may help, especially if I can rework the gearbox oiling system to spray cool oil on the mainshaft and the ring and pinion gears. The original GT40s were equipped with gearbox oil coolers for their ZFs.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has modified an 016 box for external oil cooling. I suspect the rally cars must've used something like this. Any help you could send my way would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, and I look forward to your replies.

BTW, I'll crost-post this to the 80/90 forum in hopes of getting a reply from Squidx9.

Regards,
Mark

Audiboy

squidx frequents the race forum. xpost there too

squidix9

I don't use a tranny cooler.

The main reason is that the lines would be too susceptable to damage underneath.

The first thing I would do though is make sure you use the best oil you can. One of the Toyota teams was having problems with blowing out the rear diffs in their cars. They tried Redline, but they would only last one or two events. They switched to NEO, and the problems stopped.

I use NEO 75-90 in the rear diff, and RHD in the gearbox. No signs of wear at all.

Would an external cooler help, sure!<ul><li><a href="http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/">NEO</a></li></ul>

fusilier

The engine of course was mated to a dry oil sump in the rear boot, oil coolers under the rear wing, and about 27 quarts of oil in the whole system.

I have to ask, why use a 016 tranny? If the originals had ZF, surely your replica would be more authentic with the correct type of transmission in it with the oil cooler. In the end perhaps it would be better to go that route than to adapt an Audi 016 for that purpose. I've heard the 016 stock is okay with high 300s and starts to present problems beyond that on some key parts (from the UrQ list). My gearbox is a Kluge 016 with hardened gears. I believe but don't quote me, that those gear in question need to be hardened for that increase power capacity (not necessary oil cooled) so that they won't strip or break teeth. The Audi rally cars used permanantly lock diffs, but I haven't heard of problems with stock Audi diffs at 450+ hp.

So you've taken a 016 (from a?) and removed the shaft to the front axles? or replaced the lockable center with a Quaife? or did you just replace the center with a Quaife and your going to keep AWD?

cuatrokoop

Many of the GT40 kits are designed to use one of several FWD transmissions as it is a true-to-form mid-engine car. One of which is the FWD version of the 016 'box found in 5spd FWD type44 cars, especially the turbo gas and turbo diesel ones.

I know of more than a few people running a good amount of power through the AWD 016 (500-ish HP from a 20vt, 300-400hp from an LT1, etc, all with loads of torque) with no problems. They even use the factory clutch disc on some of them (higher force pressure plate however). The early 01A 5spd AWD gear boxes have problems once you get to near 300lb-ft of torque. The early 01E has problems when you get between 300-350lb-ft. The later 01E's are much better than that. Notice I am not talking HP, but torque limitations ;-)

The reason the urq guys have problems is probably due to the age of the transmission and final drive, and the fact that while CIS fueling can be very reliable, it can't crank out much more the 280hp running without an O2 sensor, and 250-260 with an O2.

The Sprongls would run a 4kq 016 box with their Lehman built 10vt in the US (that 016 has 4.11 final like the urq that worked better with the restrictor plate they had to run in ProSolo). It held up pretty well, but they still went through it after each event or two to be safe.

GT40 Builder

A refurbished ZF from a BMW M1 or from a Pantera (which needs to be flipped) goes for about $9,000, and I could purchase 20 016 boxes for that much scratch. Besides, the kit I'm building was designed around the 016, and I'd probably have to cut and re-weld the chassis mounting points to fit any other gearbox (other than an 01E, I suspect). Quaife is coming out with a sequential gearbox ($15k) and it'll be interesting to see what Ford uses in their new GT, but for the foreseeable future I'm sticking with the 016 (or maybe the 01E).

I don't know what specific car mine came from, although I'm told that 100s and 5000s are the preferred donors. The bellhousing mates to the engine via an adaptor plate, and the rear shaft is removed and a Porsche part is used to seal the rear. The 016 differential was replaced with a Quaife, and the 4.11 ring and pinion were replaced with a 3.89 final drive from a Porsche 944 box.

I'd be interested to hear what process was used to harden the gears in your Kluge box, and in what a Kluge is for that matter.

Regards,
Mark

GT40 Builder

I'm confused about the difference between what you use in your diff and in the box. From their web site it looks like there is 75W-90 HD, 75W-90 EP, and 75W-90 RHD. WHy not use the RHD stuff throughout?

Any way, it looks like I'll pick up a couple 016 boxes and play around with a modified oiling system.

Regards,
Mark

fusilier

I'm not at all familiar with the GT40 replicas or the process and couldn't see how an Audi 016 gearbox would work in that process, but its pretty clear to me now.

Heinz Kluge builds transmissions in Germany.
ex-audi sport guy.

Follow the link and scroll down to transmissions.
I'm not sure if he's still in business or retired, but I have his work number in Germany if your interested in buying a transmission. Cost is going to be through the roof with Euro conversion and shipping. Probably $4500 US dollars now.---But hey! they have a transmission oil cooler..


Hardened gears are exactly that, Cut from harder steel or altered via induction heating with machining back to spec size. So most of the gears that break teeth or wear down are replaced with better stuff. usually 1st and 2nd for sure and then any ancillary gear like the ring gear, main shaft, etc.<ul><li><a href="http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:PTGEyr5NyF0J:www.northerneuropeanau tomotive.com/products.html+Heinz+Kluge+audi&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UT F-8">http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:PTGEyr5NyF0J:www.northerneuropeanau tomotive.com/products

cuatrokoop

You know, it would have maybe been less work for you to start with a 5ktq 016, or a (more rare) 5kt FWD 5spd gear box, as those have 3.89's already in them. The FWD box wouldn't have needed the Porsche part, just the Quaife...

The FWD code is AFC.

The AWD code is AES.

I have an AES sitting in my parts car (1986 5ktq) if you want one. Its shift linkage was akin to churning butter, but other than that no noises or anything. It has 155k on it, I think.

If you are near central Ohio and want it, let me know. its close to being completely removed from the car as it is ;-)