opinions on performance benefits of aftermarket spark plug wires please, thanks
04-07-2001, 12:10 AM
#3
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If this is for a 1.8T, you have no plug wires
They use a direct fire system with a coil pack on each plug.
For other motors, despite the advertising hype, if you can prove it to me with back to back runs, same motor, same day that plug wires give you ANY advantage, I'll be surprised. Good stock wites with proper terminals, clean and ready to go are all you ever need.
For other motors, despite the advertising hype, if you can prove it to me with back to back runs, same motor, same day that plug wires give you ANY advantage, I'll be surprised. Good stock wites with proper terminals, clean and ready to go are all you ever need.
04-07-2001, 12:01 PM
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RangeR BoB is correct and to add....
Hiya,
It is probably the most wasted mod IMHO for anything but appearence sake. European and Japanese ignition systems are overdesigned. The whole obsession with MSD ignitions and Jacobs coils and all that is a carryover from muscle car mods. American ignition systems are designed to give the rated power no more, no less.
Example, typical ignition coil voltage in a late model Cavalier/Sunfire for the 2.0L is about 20-22kV. Go to the Civic/Integra 1.6/1.8L and you have 40+kV on the coil, welcome overkill.
Unless you are running over 300hp your current ignition system is fine. Use the $$$ for other things.
Cheers,
Michael
It is probably the most wasted mod IMHO for anything but appearence sake. European and Japanese ignition systems are overdesigned. The whole obsession with MSD ignitions and Jacobs coils and all that is a carryover from muscle car mods. American ignition systems are designed to give the rated power no more, no less.
Example, typical ignition coil voltage in a late model Cavalier/Sunfire for the 2.0L is about 20-22kV. Go to the Civic/Integra 1.6/1.8L and you have 40+kV on the coil, welcome overkill.
Unless you are running over 300hp your current ignition system is fine. Use the $$$ for other things.
Cheers,
Michael
04-07-2001, 11:21 PM
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how do you measure that?
How do you determine one car has 22,000 volts of spark and another 40,000? What kind of tool do you use?
How much voltage does it take to ionize the gap and cause a spark?
I would think that the voltage put out by the coil is basically determined by the size of the gap between the electrodes, because once the gap ionizes and the spark jumps the charge just runs itself out as current instead of further volts.
How much voltage does it take to ionize the gap and cause a spark?
I would think that the voltage put out by the coil is basically determined by the size of the gap between the electrodes, because once the gap ionizes and the spark jumps the charge just runs itself out as current instead of further volts.
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04-09-2001, 06:15 AM
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As rated by the manufacturers, no need to measure...
Hiya,
Those ratings are from GM and Honda/Acura.
There are two primary factors in the amount of potential energy required to build up before a given electron will "jump" a gap:
As you state, distance is the first factor.
Secondly, the amount of "insulation" in the gap. If you picture a low compression NA motor vs. a high compression NA motor vs. a forced induction motor of a given displacement, it is obvious that the greater the amount of air/fuel in the high compression NA and the forced induction motor will require the buildup of greater potential to "bridge" the gap.
Due to the high revving/high compression nature of the Japanese 4cyl. they have built a good margin of safety in their coil design (more specifically, higher voltage) than the American manufacturers (U.S. is now using import motors as well as incorporating this of late). European manufacturers love redundancy of parts, and since many of the 4cyl. NA models of Saab, Volvo, Audi and the like, which also have turbo models (you can buy a non-turbo 1.8L in Europe for example), use the same coil for NA and forced induction rather than a different coil for each car.
Coil output can be read on any good automotive voltmeter.
Current and potential are related as potential and kinetic energy. Each electron must have the potential to bridge a gap, or the spark will cease. In laymans terms electrical energy can be thought of as a waterfall, voltage is the height of the falls, current the amount of material pouring over. (Why a 50kV stun gun won't kill you at its milliamp output, but 120V household at 4amps will). If all you needed to "jump" a gap was getting the first electron to have the proper potential, you would be in violation of the law of energy conservation. Think of it this way, could you use a drop of water falling off Niagra falls to power bringing another drop of water to that height from sea level?
Cheers,
Michael
Those ratings are from GM and Honda/Acura.
There are two primary factors in the amount of potential energy required to build up before a given electron will "jump" a gap:
As you state, distance is the first factor.
Secondly, the amount of "insulation" in the gap. If you picture a low compression NA motor vs. a high compression NA motor vs. a forced induction motor of a given displacement, it is obvious that the greater the amount of air/fuel in the high compression NA and the forced induction motor will require the buildup of greater potential to "bridge" the gap.
Due to the high revving/high compression nature of the Japanese 4cyl. they have built a good margin of safety in their coil design (more specifically, higher voltage) than the American manufacturers (U.S. is now using import motors as well as incorporating this of late). European manufacturers love redundancy of parts, and since many of the 4cyl. NA models of Saab, Volvo, Audi and the like, which also have turbo models (you can buy a non-turbo 1.8L in Europe for example), use the same coil for NA and forced induction rather than a different coil for each car.
Coil output can be read on any good automotive voltmeter.
Current and potential are related as potential and kinetic energy. Each electron must have the potential to bridge a gap, or the spark will cease. In laymans terms electrical energy can be thought of as a waterfall, voltage is the height of the falls, current the amount of material pouring over. (Why a 50kV stun gun won't kill you at its milliamp output, but 120V household at 4amps will). If all you needed to "jump" a gap was getting the first electron to have the proper potential, you would be in violation of the law of energy conservation. Think of it this way, could you use a drop of water falling off Niagra falls to power bringing another drop of water to that height from sea level?
Cheers,
Michael
04-09-2001, 08:53 AM
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a minor rebuttal
Your explanation is very good, thank you. You misrepresented your info slightly in your earlier post then. You said that "European and Japanese ignition systems are overdesigned. [sentence deleted] American ignition systems are designed to give the rated power no more, no less. "
Your sentence relating to rated power implies that the Japanese/Euro systems are working beyond spec and the US ones aren't. Instead you later you say mean that the spec is higher in the Euro/Japanese engines. I can understand that.
As to reading the voltage on any good automotive voltmeter, I would beg to differ. A good multimeter is only good to 1000V. Go to Fluke's (makers of the best voltmeters around) website and take a look. You need an external high voltage probe to cut the voltage down before it reaches the meter so the voltage doesn't arc across inside the meter. If you do that, then you have a problem because the spark is so short the meter might miss it. A very good meter can catch a signal 1 millionth of a second wide. I think that is good enough. I do not believe there has been an automotive meter made to this specification however. A more normal specification for a meter would be it can catch a signal 1 thousandth or 1 hundreth of a second wide. This isn't good enough.
I understand the relationship between volts an amps and kinetic and potential energy. But you should look up how lightning works. I think we can both agree that a spark is just a small bolt of lightning.
The way lightning works is that the potential between the two sides builds up to a certain level. The two sides are the two electrodes in the case of a car and the clouds and ground in the case of lightning. Once the potential gets high enough, a small amount of current manages to leap the gap. This current has to breach the insulator (air in this case) and does all the hard work. Once the current begins flowing a miniscule bit, the air on that path becomes ionized. Then, like an electrical wire it offers little resistance and the rest of the charge shoots through the path in a very short time with almost no resistance.
If every electron really made its own way, why would you see a coherent spark (or bolt of lightning)? If they made their own way, why would they all follow the same path? The answer is because the ionized path offers little resistance and so every electron follows it.
Your sentence relating to rated power implies that the Japanese/Euro systems are working beyond spec and the US ones aren't. Instead you later you say mean that the spec is higher in the Euro/Japanese engines. I can understand that.
As to reading the voltage on any good automotive voltmeter, I would beg to differ. A good multimeter is only good to 1000V. Go to Fluke's (makers of the best voltmeters around) website and take a look. You need an external high voltage probe to cut the voltage down before it reaches the meter so the voltage doesn't arc across inside the meter. If you do that, then you have a problem because the spark is so short the meter might miss it. A very good meter can catch a signal 1 millionth of a second wide. I think that is good enough. I do not believe there has been an automotive meter made to this specification however. A more normal specification for a meter would be it can catch a signal 1 thousandth or 1 hundreth of a second wide. This isn't good enough.
I understand the relationship between volts an amps and kinetic and potential energy. But you should look up how lightning works. I think we can both agree that a spark is just a small bolt of lightning.
The way lightning works is that the potential between the two sides builds up to a certain level. The two sides are the two electrodes in the case of a car and the clouds and ground in the case of lightning. Once the potential gets high enough, a small amount of current manages to leap the gap. This current has to breach the insulator (air in this case) and does all the hard work. Once the current begins flowing a miniscule bit, the air on that path becomes ionized. Then, like an electrical wire it offers little resistance and the rest of the charge shoots through the path in a very short time with almost no resistance.
If every electron really made its own way, why would you see a coherent spark (or bolt of lightning)? If they made their own way, why would they all follow the same path? The answer is because the ionized path offers little resistance and so every electron follows it.
04-09-2001, 02:28 PM
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Potential is still same for all electrons in the cloud, though...
Hiya,
Yes there is a decrease in the resistance along the path, but watch any lightning bolt, they are not a straight line to the ground, and contain many branch points. This would infer that the reduction in the potential difference is very small compared to the total potential.
In the automobile engine you are at anywhere from a compression ratio of 8.5-11 in most cars (far more dense than ambient air) as well as having a far better insulating material (the fuel) atomized in there as well. In this case a higher potential is necessary to bridge the gap.
Somewhere I have info on coils in my old Honda/Acura information, I'll try to dig it up...
Cheers,
Michael
Yes there is a decrease in the resistance along the path, but watch any lightning bolt, they are not a straight line to the ground, and contain many branch points. This would infer that the reduction in the potential difference is very small compared to the total potential.
In the automobile engine you are at anywhere from a compression ratio of 8.5-11 in most cars (far more dense than ambient air) as well as having a far better insulating material (the fuel) atomized in there as well. In this case a higher potential is necessary to bridge the gap.
Somewhere I have info on coils in my old Honda/Acura information, I'll try to dig it up...
Cheers,
Michael
