TDLRACING!!!!! 12v ers are gonna be VERY happy...
08-01-2001, 11:24 PM
#2
Yah..........."Big Valve" Heads - $2995! Headers -$2100....................
You are going to spend some cash getting that NA Audi motor up to 230 hp! Even more cash getting it to 250!
08-02-2001, 06:07 AM
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I'd be careful before you shell out money...
I'd be careful. I know of a modified 12v in the Quattro Club that had EVERYTHING (including bottom end, big valve heads, cams, etc.) done to it and was only running about 230hp. They said the major reason they couldn't get more power was the ECU couldn't be programmed.
I'd be real leery of anyone that claims you can get those numbers by only doing big valve heads. Sounds very suspicious to me.
Just playing Devil's advocate here but those numbers sound pie-in-the-sky.
-JS
I'd be real leery of anyone that claims you can get those numbers by only doing big valve heads. Sounds very suspicious to me.
Just playing Devil's advocate here but those numbers sound pie-in-the-sky.
-JS
08-07-2001, 08:31 AM
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from what I hear, TDL used to supply the parts to vortrag
but they have proven to provide alot of HP.
There is an older tech article on the 12v A4 that vortrag worked on here on audiworld. Has alot of the information on the mods and effects etc.
There is an older tech article on the 12v A4 that vortrag worked on here on audiworld. Has alot of the information on the mods and effects etc.
08-08-2001, 09:37 AM
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Re: Where did you get that idea?
Okay, here's what I know about the 12v upgrade I saw at a Quattro Club track school.
I talked to the owner of the red A4 who is a Quattro Club instructor (female). It had everything done to it but she said it was still not all that fast. I think she said she was getting about 230hp. She said it had the bottom end bored out to almost 3 liters, big valve heads, cams, pistons, race exhaust, intake and some other things done to it.
I was under the impression from all the posts I'd been seeing here lately that you were expecting 230hp from just big valve heads and headers. I suppose if you spend about $10k to do everything and increase displacement, you'll probably get there.
The thing I remember about the red car was that the owner said it had some weird issues due to the ECU not being tuned to the upgrades and it always had problems with ECU error codes. She said under WOT at the track it would have issues and misfires and that the ECU would have difficulty keeping up and sometimes would do weird things liek stalling and hesitating. It would go between being too rich and then knocking because the ECU couldn't adapt for the amount of work she had done.
She said it would probably be fine and get close to 250hp if the ECU could be programmed. Apparently, Vortag tuned her car and they tried to work with several different programmers and chip tuners to get something worked out but no one could ever come up with a workable solution. She was considering an aftermarket ECU but said they were expensive. SHe menioned that for the amount of money she spent and the aggravation of the ECU, she wished she'd bought an S4 and chipped it.
That's about all I know. Hopefully you will get good hp gains but I kind of doubt the amount of money invested will get you the gains you're hoping for. Just based on how much work that red A4 had for what it produced.
No offense meant here, I'm just sharing info.
Good luck.
I talked to the owner of the red A4 who is a Quattro Club instructor (female). It had everything done to it but she said it was still not all that fast. I think she said she was getting about 230hp. She said it had the bottom end bored out to almost 3 liters, big valve heads, cams, pistons, race exhaust, intake and some other things done to it.
I was under the impression from all the posts I'd been seeing here lately that you were expecting 230hp from just big valve heads and headers. I suppose if you spend about $10k to do everything and increase displacement, you'll probably get there.
The thing I remember about the red car was that the owner said it had some weird issues due to the ECU not being tuned to the upgrades and it always had problems with ECU error codes. She said under WOT at the track it would have issues and misfires and that the ECU would have difficulty keeping up and sometimes would do weird things liek stalling and hesitating. It would go between being too rich and then knocking because the ECU couldn't adapt for the amount of work she had done.
She said it would probably be fine and get close to 250hp if the ECU could be programmed. Apparently, Vortag tuned her car and they tried to work with several different programmers and chip tuners to get something worked out but no one could ever come up with a workable solution. She was considering an aftermarket ECU but said they were expensive. SHe menioned that for the amount of money she spent and the aggravation of the ECU, she wished she'd bought an S4 and chipped it.
That's about all I know. Hopefully you will get good hp gains but I kind of doubt the amount of money invested will get you the gains you're hoping for. Just based on how much work that red A4 had for what it produced.
No offense meant here, I'm just sharing info.
Good luck.
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08-08-2001, 06:04 PM
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That must have been Colleen's car. From what I understand, that car has been beaten to death...
Also, it's funny how people's stories change. When that car was first modified, they were claiming that it was making close to 300HP. Vortrag (which has since gone out of business) was famous for pulling HP numbers out of the air, and the quality of their work and their integrity as a company have come under fire of late. From what I have been told, their unfulfilled promises (on various levels) were one of the big reasons that they are no longer in business.
True, TDL Racing provided Vortrag with the heads, custom headers, and some of the other engine components that Vortrag used in their conversions. But Vortrag's business practices forced TDL to stop doing business with Vortrag and they have since started offering product and services direct to consumers.
Lloyd, the owner of TDL Racing, has extensive race engine building experience and does some amazing work. Case in point: he worked with Chrysler to help develop the LeMans Viper engine and fuel management system. The Viper won its class that year. Clearly, this guy knows what he's doing.
Unlike Vortrag, TDL doesn't make outrageous or unverifyable claims for power from their mods. If anything, TDL has been conservative in their horsepower estimates. Lloyd estimates 230HP from Big Valve Heads, Custom Headers, Ported Intake Manifold, Ported Throttle Body Housing, Custom Exhaust, and Cams. 58 horsepower from all of that work is not unreasonable for any naturally-aspirated car.
I am heading up to TDL the weekend of August 24th for all of the previous mods (except for Cams...TDL is developing their own cams which will be released in December/January), in addition to the same air intake system used by the SpeedVision A4. I will probably make my way back up to TDL early next year for a brake kit and cams, and I am planning on having my car dyno-tested at that time.
I have heard some of the same complaints/problems about these mods as you made reference to. But TDL has a few ideas for curing these glitches. Example: they will be installing an adjustable fuel pressure regulator which should help the spark knock problem. This unit will allow TDL to set the fuel pressure to a level that is consistent with the needs some of these mods present.
Also, there is a group of 12v owners who will be beta-testing a chip from a chip tuner (JET) who is traditionally associated with American cars. JET will be sending one of these group members a sample chip to test and he will be providing the rest of us with some objective feedback. We're all hopeful that this will work, especially myself and Scott Holman (another Vortrag/TDL 230HP conversion 12v driver). Here's why...
JET performs ignition and fuel mapping based on the modifications that each individual customer has done to their engine. Since we will have done extensive engine work, our cars can benefit greatly from a good chip solution. Power gains have been estimated at 25HP for our cars. But honestly, I'd settle for NO horsepower gains in exchange for improved driveability. We should have the results of the chip testing within a few weeks.
I feel comfortable with TDL Racing and confident that they will have my car in good running order by the time all of the work is done. I realize that doing this level of mods is a little extreme and something of a gamble. But I'm up for it. The main differences between my car and Colleen's (the red one you referred to) are as follows:
1) The bottom end of my car will not be bored. The displacement will stay at 2.8 liters, and
2) I have absolutely no intention of racing my car on any regular basis (if at all), and it will NOT be beaten to death.
Given those factors, I'm fairly confident that I will have better luck with my car than she has had with hers. Her car was modified 2+ years ago, and a lot has been learned since then. And Lloyd will be personally completing the entire conversion on my car. He is meticulous, very knowledgeable, and is widely regarded as one of the finest 12v tuners around. From what I understand, the SpeedVision team actively pursued his services and other companies have contacted him to head up their racing programs. But he is committed to making TDL Racing successful and to continuing their reputation of one of the best custom mod providers in the Audi tuning industry.
I'll be sure to take lots of pics of the work being done and I have a lot of people lined up to do some objective before & after reviews.
Thanks for the info. I realize that you weren't raining on my parade...and I'm still very excited.
True, TDL Racing provided Vortrag with the heads, custom headers, and some of the other engine components that Vortrag used in their conversions. But Vortrag's business practices forced TDL to stop doing business with Vortrag and they have since started offering product and services direct to consumers.
Lloyd, the owner of TDL Racing, has extensive race engine building experience and does some amazing work. Case in point: he worked with Chrysler to help develop the LeMans Viper engine and fuel management system. The Viper won its class that year. Clearly, this guy knows what he's doing.
Unlike Vortrag, TDL doesn't make outrageous or unverifyable claims for power from their mods. If anything, TDL has been conservative in their horsepower estimates. Lloyd estimates 230HP from Big Valve Heads, Custom Headers, Ported Intake Manifold, Ported Throttle Body Housing, Custom Exhaust, and Cams. 58 horsepower from all of that work is not unreasonable for any naturally-aspirated car.
I am heading up to TDL the weekend of August 24th for all of the previous mods (except for Cams...TDL is developing their own cams which will be released in December/January), in addition to the same air intake system used by the SpeedVision A4. I will probably make my way back up to TDL early next year for a brake kit and cams, and I am planning on having my car dyno-tested at that time.
I have heard some of the same complaints/problems about these mods as you made reference to. But TDL has a few ideas for curing these glitches. Example: they will be installing an adjustable fuel pressure regulator which should help the spark knock problem. This unit will allow TDL to set the fuel pressure to a level that is consistent with the needs some of these mods present.
Also, there is a group of 12v owners who will be beta-testing a chip from a chip tuner (JET) who is traditionally associated with American cars. JET will be sending one of these group members a sample chip to test and he will be providing the rest of us with some objective feedback. We're all hopeful that this will work, especially myself and Scott Holman (another Vortrag/TDL 230HP conversion 12v driver). Here's why...
JET performs ignition and fuel mapping based on the modifications that each individual customer has done to their engine. Since we will have done extensive engine work, our cars can benefit greatly from a good chip solution. Power gains have been estimated at 25HP for our cars. But honestly, I'd settle for NO horsepower gains in exchange for improved driveability. We should have the results of the chip testing within a few weeks.
I feel comfortable with TDL Racing and confident that they will have my car in good running order by the time all of the work is done. I realize that doing this level of mods is a little extreme and something of a gamble. But I'm up for it. The main differences between my car and Colleen's (the red one you referred to) are as follows:
1) The bottom end of my car will not be bored. The displacement will stay at 2.8 liters, and
2) I have absolutely no intention of racing my car on any regular basis (if at all), and it will NOT be beaten to death.
Given those factors, I'm fairly confident that I will have better luck with my car than she has had with hers. Her car was modified 2+ years ago, and a lot has been learned since then. And Lloyd will be personally completing the entire conversion on my car. He is meticulous, very knowledgeable, and is widely regarded as one of the finest 12v tuners around. From what I understand, the SpeedVision team actively pursued his services and other companies have contacted him to head up their racing programs. But he is committed to making TDL Racing successful and to continuing their reputation of one of the best custom mod providers in the Audi tuning industry.
I'll be sure to take lots of pics of the work being done and I have a lot of people lined up to do some objective before & after reviews.
Thanks for the info. I realize that you weren't raining on my parade...and I'm still very excited.
08-09-2001, 05:52 AM
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From what I understand
That was her daily driver and it wasn't beaten to death at all. DUde, you really need to attend a Quattro Club school. It is a far cry from real racing. Anyway, if a car can't even handle some club events, good street racing and off the line starts, what good is it?
From what Colleen said, the guy that built the engine for her did engine work for Vortrag - I assume she meant Llyodd. She said that he was pretty sure the car would do 300hp with all the upgrades because he had done some older 12v that supposedly dynoed 300hp with a TAP chip. I guess the actual numbers she got was a lot less plus not having the ECU upgrades hurt. I was kind of interested at the time becuase I had a 97 A4 but I ended up selling it.
HEy, it's your car and money and I hope it works out for you. For 230 hp, I just personally couldn't justify spending the $10 or 15k for such a small amount of power with all kinds of issues.
From what Colleen said, the guy that built the engine for her did engine work for Vortrag - I assume she meant Llyodd. She said that he was pretty sure the car would do 300hp with all the upgrades because he had done some older 12v that supposedly dynoed 300hp with a TAP chip. I guess the actual numbers she got was a lot less plus not having the ECU upgrades hurt. I was kind of interested at the time becuase I had a 97 A4 but I ended up selling it.
HEy, it's your car and money and I hope it works out for you. For 230 hp, I just personally couldn't justify spending the $10 or 15k for such a small amount of power with all kinds of issues.
09-05-2001, 01:42 PM
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Re: Yah..........."Big Valve" Heads - $2995! Headers -$2100....................
If you don't want to spend that much money you can always sell your car and buy a 1.8T or an S4 and pick from a long list of people with parts available. The fact is the market for 12V perforormance parts pails compared to the turbo cars, and it is not as profitable there fore the cost is high. I got an even better way to save money buy an Integra, parts should be a dime a dozen and your car will also. Lets face it, it is costly to be one of the few instead of one of many.