Dave, you knew it was coming. Top Tier Gasoline TSB
04-11-2007, 11:39 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Dave, you knew it was coming. Top Tier Gasoline TSB
This TSB was released on the day I went in for service. no wonder it was fresh on my service tech's mind. Please notice that EVERYTHING we have talked about regarding problems shows up here, including:
excessive deposits
misfires
hesitation
Note also that Audi has covered their Magnuson-Moss *** by referring to the Top Tier fuel consortium. And finally, note that this is "informational only" and not applicable to any Audi warranty. Talk about CYA
--------beginning of tsb ----------
Gasoline quality
00 07 08 April 5, 2007 2014753/1
Condition
The use of contaminated gasoline or gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives may result in one or more of the following conditions:
*Excessive accumulation of deposits on intake valves, intake manifold, fuel injectors and combustion chambers.
*Engine runs rough after cold start.
Production Solution
Not applicable.
Service
*Excessive engine cranking time.
*Hesitations while driving.
*Rough engine idle.
*Loss of engine performance.
*Poor fuel economy.
Conditions may be severe enough to illuminate the MIL in conjunction with storage in the ECM data memory of DTCs for misfire (example: P0300, P030x) and / or lean fuel system (example: P0171, P0174, P1128, P1130, P1136, P1138).
Technical Background
1.Condition may be caused by use of contaminated gasoline.
2.Condition may be caused by use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives.
Production Solution
None
Service
1.If use of contaminated gasoline is suspected
Consider advising the customer to change gasoline source (brand/gas station). Contaminated gasoline may exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:
*May have unique color and odor. *May contain undissolved water.
*May contain sediments and suspended matter.
*May appear cloudy and (after settling) may show signs of separation.
2. If use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives is suspected
Recommend to the customer the exclusive use of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline. These products provide improved deposit control performance. Current TOP TIER Gasoline retailers offering this product in all their octane grades include the following brands:
*QuikTrip
*Chevron
*Conoco
*Phillips 76
*Shell
*Entec Stations
*MFA Oil Company
*Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
*The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
*Chevron-Canada *Aloha Petroleum
*Tri-Par Oil Company *Shell-Canada
*Texaco
*Petro-Canada
*Sunoco-Canada
Tip: For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please see www.toptiergas.com.
Warranty
This TSB is informational only and not applicable to any Audi warranty.
-------------------------------------------------
excessive deposits
misfires
hesitation
Note also that Audi has covered their Magnuson-Moss *** by referring to the Top Tier fuel consortium. And finally, note that this is "informational only" and not applicable to any Audi warranty. Talk about CYA
--------beginning of tsb ----------
Gasoline quality
00 07 08 April 5, 2007 2014753/1
Condition
The use of contaminated gasoline or gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives may result in one or more of the following conditions:
*Excessive accumulation of deposits on intake valves, intake manifold, fuel injectors and combustion chambers.
*Engine runs rough after cold start.
Production Solution
Not applicable.
Service
*Excessive engine cranking time.
*Hesitations while driving.
*Rough engine idle.
*Loss of engine performance.
*Poor fuel economy.
Conditions may be severe enough to illuminate the MIL in conjunction with storage in the ECM data memory of DTCs for misfire (example: P0300, P030x) and / or lean fuel system (example: P0171, P0174, P1128, P1130, P1136, P1138).
Technical Background
1.Condition may be caused by use of contaminated gasoline.
2.Condition may be caused by use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives.
Production Solution
None
Service
1.If use of contaminated gasoline is suspected
Consider advising the customer to change gasoline source (brand/gas station). Contaminated gasoline may exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:
*May have unique color and odor. *May contain undissolved water.
*May contain sediments and suspended matter.
*May appear cloudy and (after settling) may show signs of separation.
2. If use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives is suspected
Recommend to the customer the exclusive use of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline. These products provide improved deposit control performance. Current TOP TIER Gasoline retailers offering this product in all their octane grades include the following brands:
*QuikTrip
*Chevron
*Conoco
*Phillips 76
*Shell
*Entec Stations
*MFA Oil Company
*Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
*The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
*Chevron-Canada *Aloha Petroleum
*Tri-Par Oil Company *Shell-Canada
*Texaco
*Petro-Canada
*Sunoco-Canada
Tip: For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please see www.toptiergas.com.
Warranty
This TSB is informational only and not applicable to any Audi warranty.
-------------------------------------------------
04-11-2007, 11:54 AM
#3
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And there is no way to control the occasional contaminated gas...
even major brands. It happens.
I would like to view this as an advisory thing, and perfectly legitimate. Where are you making the leap to warranty evasion? It even says that at the very end, if that is part of the TSB, and not your own comments. That said, oh I wouldn't necessarily disgaree with you about setting things up as future warranty escape clauses.
I would like to view this as an advisory thing, and perfectly legitimate. Where are you making the leap to warranty evasion? It even says that at the very end, if that is part of the TSB, and not your own comments. That said, oh I wouldn't necessarily disgaree with you about setting things up as future warranty escape clauses.
04-11-2007, 11:54 AM
#4
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Suspcious of the URL listed in that TSB, I did some searching....
From the post linked...
Not only should you be using premium gas (whatever octane that is in you part of the country) but you should choose Top Tier (http://www.toptiergas.com/)gas which meets BMW specs.
What, exactly, is this "Top Tier Gas" web site? It doesn't disclose any affiliations, so some investigation is warranted:
nwhois toptiergas.com
Registrant:
National Products Group (DWZWSDYIHD)
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM
Administrative Contact:
Denny, Jim (18276434I) ynnedj@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
9188368551
Hmmm. Not too informative. However, let's Google on the phone number. There are a large number of hits, most of which point to a "Quik Trip Corporation", which operates a large number of gas stations in that area. A Google of the Quik Trip web site reveals that Jim Denny is their Vice President of Marketing.
In fact, they have a "Top Tier" gas item on their web page (here) (http://www.quiktrip.com/gasoline/TopTier.asp).
How likely do you think it is that the brands listed on the Top Tier web page are the same ones that Quik Trip carries? And what are the odds that a gasoline retailer is actually conducting the studies needed to actually rate gasoline quality?
The Internet is a wonderful thing, but one has to be cautious about any "facts" which are posted without substantiation or references.<ul><li><a href="http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-84965.html">http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-84965.html</a</li></ul>
Not only should you be using premium gas (whatever octane that is in you part of the country) but you should choose Top Tier (http://www.toptiergas.com/)gas which meets BMW specs.
What, exactly, is this "Top Tier Gas" web site? It doesn't disclose any affiliations, so some investigation is warranted:
nwhois toptiergas.com
Registrant:
National Products Group (DWZWSDYIHD)
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM
Administrative Contact:
Denny, Jim (18276434I) ynnedj@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
9188368551
Hmmm. Not too informative. However, let's Google on the phone number. There are a large number of hits, most of which point to a "Quik Trip Corporation", which operates a large number of gas stations in that area. A Google of the Quik Trip web site reveals that Jim Denny is their Vice President of Marketing.
In fact, they have a "Top Tier" gas item on their web page (here) (http://www.quiktrip.com/gasoline/TopTier.asp).
How likely do you think it is that the brands listed on the Top Tier web page are the same ones that Quik Trip carries? And what are the odds that a gasoline retailer is actually conducting the studies needed to actually rate gasoline quality?
The Internet is a wonderful thing, but one has to be cautious about any "facts" which are posted without substantiation or references.<ul><li><a href="http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-84965.html">http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-84965.html</a</li></ul>
04-11-2007, 11:58 AM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Here's what your owner's manual says
Damage or malfunction due to poor fuel quality is not covered by the Audi New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
Other exclusions - Limited New Vehicle Warranty
* Damage or malfunction caused by using contaminated or improper fuel ... and intentional or unintentional misfueling.
Other exclusions - Limited New Vehicle Warranty
* Damage or malfunction caused by using contaminated or improper fuel ... and intentional or unintentional misfueling.
04-11-2007, 12:09 PM
#7
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But Scott, I am pretty sure language like that exists in most car OM's...
in fact, I have seen such in many OM's.
What this language is all about is simply that you should not knowingly use inferior gas(i.e. below minimum RON). Also, alternate fuels(i.e. racing, ethanol, octane boosters).
You may be taking things a little too literally again. Step back, take another look.
What this language is all about is simply that you should not knowingly use inferior gas(i.e. below minimum RON). Also, alternate fuels(i.e. racing, ethanol, octane boosters).
You may be taking things a little too literally again. Step back, take another look.
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04-11-2007, 12:11 PM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Certainly there is a reason for this TSB
Something is happening that is bad enough for this TSB to come out at this time. My service tech related it directly to a rash of cars coming in with misfires and deposits on the valves.
There are no other instances of gasoline quality issues other than this recent one. Notice that it covers all models and all years since 2000. Either there is suddenly a problem happening with the fuel supply in the US (which certainly would affect other auto manufacturers engines), or there is an Audi-specific problem occuring. If that is the case, why didn't it show up before, since vehicles back to 2000 are included in the TSB.
I wonder is it:
a) a sudden rash of bad gas everywhere?
b) a severe problem Audi's have always had with poor fuel quality that it took 7 years to diagnose?
c) a design problem with new engine types?
Can anyone come up with another plausible reason for this TSB?
There are no other instances of gasoline quality issues other than this recent one. Notice that it covers all models and all years since 2000. Either there is suddenly a problem happening with the fuel supply in the US (which certainly would affect other auto manufacturers engines), or there is an Audi-specific problem occuring. If that is the case, why didn't it show up before, since vehicles back to 2000 are included in the TSB.
I wonder is it:
a) a sudden rash of bad gas everywhere?
b) a severe problem Audi's have always had with poor fuel quality that it took 7 years to diagnose?
c) a design problem with new engine types?
Can anyone come up with another plausible reason for this TSB?
04-11-2007, 12:17 PM
#9
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Oh I see now....
where you're coming from. Yes, I completely agree with your analysis of the situation. The bastads! : )
Oh, and my answer would have to be C...with CYA factor tossed in where the older MY's are concered.
Oh, and my answer would have to be C...with CYA factor tossed in where the older MY's are concered.
04-11-2007, 12:21 PM
#10
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Right ... the all models, all years is plausible deniability.
Right now, they are doing what they can to limit their own legal liability. As a result, there is nothing specific in this TSB that Audi is admitting to. Just a list of problems, and a potential source of that problem: Bad Gasoline