gibsonl

Of course now JHM and Audi are leaving me holding the bag in the middle, but it'd be nice to at least know who to go after. My independent shop has verified the uneven wear on my clutch and probable warped clutch (still trying to test that to confirm). Apparently half looks brand new and the other half pretty worn after 1k miles of use. Fortunately I've already gotten myself comfortable with the idea of a double clutch job over the last few days. But do I try the JHM again or move on to something else? What other clutches are people using? Hopefully I'll have some pics soon. All the bolts on the flywheel were tight but JHM said if they are torqued unevenly this could create the problem. I guess reusing the same flywheel should prove if it's faulty parts or installation? If the same flywheel works that's obvious, but could the flywheel be damaged by the faulty install? Would unevenly tightened bolts permanently damage the flywheel? Why didn't I have the low rpm shuddering for the first 900 or so miles durign break-in? My heads spinning. I will fairly add that JHM will inspect my parts for free to determine if it's parts failure. But what manufacturer would say I made a bad part?! Even as a business owner myself, that sounds crazy! Even if I were "at fault."

sakimano

it's pretty simple.

these clutches have not 'failed' in the past. There have been install problems or break in problems, or supporting hardware problems...but the clutches themselves haven't failed. They're very strong.

Considering the fact that you ignored JHM's break-in instructions of 750 miles of city driving (and chose instead to pile on some highway miles with upshifting/downshifting)...and then after doing this, you took the car to a track day...and considering you posted about all of that on a couple of different Audi forums, it's pretty clear JHM isn't going to help you, nor should they have to.

So your best bet is to have Audi take it out in front of you...show you the loctite...show you that they didn't screw up the install. Then stick them with the instructions again and have them re-install properly (and hope that by ignoring the break in instructions and then rushing off to a track day, you didn't also **** the clutch up).

Don't say I didn't warn you about this. Repeatedly.

gibsonl

Saki back at it again with his assumptions. I put 900 miles on the clutch. A majortiy of it was driving around the back roads in MD and DC. For you to make an assumption that I followed someone elses instructions to drive 250 miles on the highway makes you look pretty slow. You are really good at copying and pasting old posts so please pull up the post where I said I was doing all of my driving on the highway doing up and down shifts?!... The fact that you don't believe it's possible for anything related to JHM to fail is the problem. Rather than having anything constructive to add you just go on rants to blame everyone/thing else. The whole point of the forums is for people to discuss issues in entirity, just just rule out 1 possibility bc Saki said so. And as I said, I've already have RAI do the teardown and the bolts were tight and loctited. Considering that Audi wouldn't do the teardown on Monday, clearly they wouldn't have the day after install so all of your thoughts and opinions and thoughts ... Once again, useless.

ELEVENS

Armchair diagnosis from a guy who hasn't done a clutch job in 20 years (but did something like 50-100 prior):

Flywheel was either bent during install (installation of a tight clearance part, compliments of a big fvcking hammer -BFH) or was not seated flush with the crank flange (nose).

Highly unlikely the flywheel was untrue prior to installation, but anything's possible I guess.

Hope everything works out for you. Good luck.

gibsonl

But the thing that is throwi me off is that there was no shuddering for the first 1k miles. I didn't go above 5k rpm for the first 900 miles. But around 950 I did get it heated up with some good up and down shifting which was the first time I realy smelled the clutch. After that everything was fine as well. All of a sudden the next day I'm out on the track and about 5 laps in I start to feel a bit of a shudder. It just seems like it should have been there from day 1 wiht a bad install.

ELEVENS

Guessing that the much-reduced surface area of the swept portion of the clutch friction material caused it to become glazed? That, compounded by some bouncing from excessive axial runout.

sakimano

blah blah blah

Answer the question - did you put the 750 miles of city driving on the car that JHM outlined in their instructions?

Kai told you highway was ok if you did 4-5-6-5-4-5-6-5-4 etc. JHM did not. You did what Kai said. You drove 100 miles a day according to your posts in the many other threads. You sure as **** didn't do 100 miles a day of city driving. By your own admission, you drove 'backroads'. Great. Is that stop and go city driving? No. It's not even close.

The first day your clutch was installed you said the engagement point was way different to stock. Did that change? Did anyone suggest that this was a red flag to you?

What you may want to tell elevens is that while you had no vibration the first 1000 miles, you also didn't go to a track day in the first 1000 miles lol. You did 1000 miles of highway/backroad driving/commuting. Then you took your car to a track day. Then you reported it was vibrating.

gibsonl

Would you like to come to MD and see all the lights that we have on the roads here. I'll take you for a ride around my community so that you don't continue to make an a** of yourself everytime you speak about things you know nothing about. Considering that you were unable to pull quotes of me saying that I planned to do all highway driving I'm going to guess they don't exist. Do you want to call my girlfriend so she can tell you how many hours a day I spent in my car?! First it's Audi messing up the install, now it's my break-in. The problem can't be everything Saki! Please ol'wise one. Tell me, what is THE cause!?!

gibsonl

Hey Saki, it appears as though JHM is just as arrogant as you. Are you sure you aren't the secret owner of JHM?! What's the point of me sending them the parts to inspect when they already said that "it's impossible for the part to have failed so there's no way we are covering it." Thats pretty disappointing. Not that I expected them to say that their part failed, but to not even acknowledge the possibility, without having even seen the parts yet to determine the cause, is absurd. Even Ferrari has rare failures now and then. I'm definitely going with a clutchmasters steel flywheel setup so I never go through this again. Was it installer error, probably a 90% chance, but when you have a client who has spent well over $5k with you in a year (between mod's and basic maintenance parts) you have to have a little more tact.... $100 discount on a new setup is like sticking up your middle finger at me.

sakimano

Being the secret owner of JHM would be a horrible job. They're way too busy and underwater all the time. No thanks!

Sorry to see you are having this problem but as I said everything you have pointed to would indicate an installation problem. Even the guys on quattroworld told you that.

Moving on to your break in technique, you claimed to drive about 900 miles in 8 days. So you drove 110+ miles a day in city traffic? No you didn't. Average speed in city traffic is about 15-20 miles per hour when you factor in the stops vs. the times you are moving at 30-40 mph. So you're going to stand there and tell the forum that you put in about 5-7 hours of driving per day in??? See, I just don't believe it.

Here's the timeline around your clutch debacle. Correct any part if you feel it's inaccurate.

03/27 - JHM clutch installed

03/28 - gibsonl asks on quattrofail how to break in the clutch, even thought the JHM literature clearly says '750 miles of CITY DRIVING'
'So what exactly does driving 750 city miles mean? Do I want to be doing a lot of down shifting at low revs or high revs? I guess driving in one gear for long periods of time is worthless right. Have any of you noticed that if you try to let the clutch out with the car in first and adding late throttle, there's a bit of a vibration in the drivetrain?

Why is he asking if the instructions are right there? Is he looking for a reason to shorten the breakin periiod by cutting some corners???
'I have to get these miles in within 8 days for my track event next weekend so I want to make sure I do this right! ''


OHHHH...okay, now we know where this is going. Also interesting that he was having these vibrations ON THE FIRST DAY. So much for the clutch was fine until a week in. Another sign of installer error.

03/29 - Kai @ elite gives some terirble advice - 'I've broken in a clutch in 250-300 miles pretty much 2 days before the Miami Mile for a 997T. Get on the highway and keep shifting 4-5-6, 4-5-6, 4-5-6....'
Note that NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with gibsonl's question or the JHM break in method. He basically tells him to run 1/3 the recommended miles, and on the completely wrong place (highway, not city)...then Kai admits that he didn't trust that break in so he ran another car at the Miami Mile event.

03/29 - quattrothatcould, an A4 1.8T owner with NOTHING from JHM on his car, let alone a clutch/flywheel compounds the situation '2nd what Kai said. 750mi actually seems on the long end of what's needed. '
So now these guys are re-writing the instructions for JHM???

gibsonl would never listen to them though, right???

03/29 - gibsonl says 'I'm sure I'll have 250 miles on it by tomorrow night so doing the 750 miles isn't an issue. Hopefully I can put in 3-400 this weekend as well.'

Umm...doesn't sound like he's doing city miles, does it. He has 250 miles on the clutch in 2 days of city driving??? You have to be kidding me. Of course not.

04/03 - gibsoni on audiworld says 'This stage 4 clutch has a super shallow engagement so should be quick!' to which I reply 'uh oh...should be just like stock. This is symptomatic of an install problem. Who installed it?'...which is when he tells us his Audi dealer did. Shiny floors there I guess. Must know what they're doing.

04/03 - I realise who this is and confirm it 'Aren't you the guy who had it installed like 5 days ago? And were advised that 250 miles of break in would be ok for you (and your trackday/dragstrip day)? If so I hope you ignored that advice and followed the instructions on break in. ' gibsonl replies 'I'm 650 miles in so no concerns with getting to 800-900 by Friday which meets the break-in requirement' (basically dodging the question and the fact that he has NOT met the break in requirement. Highway miles doing the odd downshift do not equal city miles).

He was at 250 miles by March 30th...and is at 650 by April 3rd...so he put 400 miles on in 3 days. OK..so it's a guarantee that he has IGNORED the JHM instructions of 750 miles of city break in miles....and has just been commuting on the highway and doing lots of shifting using the Kai method (that Kai himself didn't actually trust lol)

With all these warnings, he'd never go to a track day with an improperly broken in clutch that was already showing signs of an install problem, would he??

04/07 - gibsonl starts a thread on quattrofail showing a video from his track day at Summit. Guess he didn't take the advice to skip the event and properly break it in. A3TDI, myself and Reggie all advised him to do that.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/79777.phtml

04/07 - gibsoni starts a 'stage 4 clutch shuddering' thread on quattrofail and audiworld
http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/79759.phtml