RS4 or WRX Sti? Coming from an E46 M3
11-26-2012, 07:23 PM
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RS4 or WRX Sti? Coming from an E46 M3
Hi all. I'm new to this forum. I posted on the other "coming from the M3" thread but didnt want to highjack another thread.
I searched for STI vs RS4 and couldnt find anything in this forum.
I'm currently driving an E46 M3 SMG. The original idea was that it was the all-in-one-can-do-everything-well car. It's practical, luxurious, fast, exciting, legendary, award-winning etc etc.
However it isnt:
As practical as a 4 door car
As a AWD car for Canadian winter driving
Due to these two major reasons, I will be switching to an AWD 4-Door Sedan, Hatch or Estate/Wagon/Avant. The objective is to have an all-season practical car and a Z06 (with Z07 package preferably) as my summer fun / occasional track car.
Question... brand new WRX Sti or used RS4 (anywhere from 40,000 to 90,000 km).
Does the RS4 have major maintenance milestones like the M3 has every 50,000km or major known costly failures?
Maintenance costs, fuel efficiency and "luxury" appear to be the main differences between the RS4 and STI. Of course, the STI is much easier to mod and get huge power and performance from for little money as well compared to NA engined cars (I know from being a M3 owner how hard it is to squeeze a HP out of a NA engine).
I'd love to hear from people who have driven both cars, owned them, or driven in friends cars etc.
I have never driven an RS4, they are so rare...but will try soon.
I searched for STI vs RS4 and couldnt find anything in this forum.
I'm currently driving an E46 M3 SMG. The original idea was that it was the all-in-one-can-do-everything-well car. It's practical, luxurious, fast, exciting, legendary, award-winning etc etc.
However it isnt:
As practical as a 4 door car
As a AWD car for Canadian winter driving
Due to these two major reasons, I will be switching to an AWD 4-Door Sedan, Hatch or Estate/Wagon/Avant. The objective is to have an all-season practical car and a Z06 (with Z07 package preferably) as my summer fun / occasional track car.
Question... brand new WRX Sti or used RS4 (anywhere from 40,000 to 90,000 km).
Does the RS4 have major maintenance milestones like the M3 has every 50,000km or major known costly failures?
Maintenance costs, fuel efficiency and "luxury" appear to be the main differences between the RS4 and STI. Of course, the STI is much easier to mod and get huge power and performance from for little money as well compared to NA engined cars (I know from being a M3 owner how hard it is to squeeze a HP out of a NA engine).
I'd love to hear from people who have driven both cars, owned them, or driven in friends cars etc.
I have never driven an RS4, they are so rare...but will try soon.
11-26-2012, 08:43 PM
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I entertained the WRX idea until I went to the Subaru dealership and sat in it. Too much plastic and "boy racer" looking for my taste. Don't mean to offend anyone but hands down ... the RS4.
11-27-2012, 04:31 PM
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(not sure if we're allowed to posts links?)
The RS4 is a completely different animal so it would come down to your personal preferences IMHO. Also IMO, the sound of a NA 4.2 V8 is so much nicer...
Last edited by G35Dalf; 11-27-2012 at 04:37 PM.
11-27-2012, 06:36 PM
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I jumped from a 2008 Sti hatch (GR) to a 2007 RS4.
At one time I had an E30 M3, did track time, did a few Skip Barber open wheel courses. I drive fast but know better than to find the limit on the street (kids need their dad), don't mod my car to death (kids have to eat), don't assign a gender to my cars (kids don't need to look at dad funny), don't street race (kids need their dad).
So with that preamble:
I liked the Sti in the years I had it.
Pros:
-had a nice boxer burble from 30-60 mph.
-Cobb Stage 1 (necessary small amount $) really helped make the stock tune better.
-Fast enough for the street.
-I didn't mind loading compost, bags of soil, packed IKEA loads for relatives in the hatch
-car with snows and Center diff set to "lock" (DCCD) greatly transformed the car in snow - car felt completely planted in the snow
-My wife hated it (more later)
Cons (some may have been addressed in 2010):
-Econobox roots showed up everywhere
-Stock shifter was mush
-car leaned a lot more than I liked
-stock springs were too soft (contemplated an upgrade)
-acceleration was frenetic
-closing a door sounded like, well, an econobox
-not acoustically insulated so well
-Premium stereo/nav seemed like an econobox base system
-found the differential settings DCCD gimmicky - except as above (Tiff Needell said it was subtle)
-found the throttle settings gimmicky (SI-drive) - always set it to S# anyway
-thin gauge body metal
-crappy crappy paint (DR Color Chip could not keep up)
-try a bluetooth conversation at 70 mph or SIRI and hilarity ensues with the responses.
-car looked good, well proportioned, to me only from certain angles- it was a complete shoe in profile
-maybe averaged 17-19 mpg so not as fuel efficient as you may think - I did not micromanage it.
Earlier this year, my wife declared that she hated my car, so I said, jokingly, that I wanted certain Audi that wasn't made anymore or a P-car. One thing led to another and I found a mostly California, low-ish miles RS4. From all I quickly read and have learned, I think the RS4 is pretty bulletproof well past 100K miles - just keep an eye on the usual carbon build-up if you want, DRC recall, service, etc.
Now the RS4 - From all I read since the RS4 came out, I was expecting the S button to crank it up to 11, but in reality, I think it is subtle (checked the flaps and they work)- the cabin is well insulated. Throttle response is better, so I always hit the S button. 0-60 is… pretty…calm.. compared to the Sti. It just pulls differently - of course. BUT comparing the perceptual pulls - getting to 70-80 in the STI is full of sound and fury building up fast. I look down at the RS4 speedometer with the same butt feel and I'm easily doing 90-100 - quietly, almost causally, with much more in reserve. The weight of the steering, DRC, cornering ability just feels better, solid, but never ponderous. There just much more power throughout and especially being above 5500 rpms, you are set to pass, or just grin. The stock RSN-E has its issues but it's waaaay better than the Sti. With the seats folded I am able to carry 4 wheels and tires - and maybe even compost and soil in the future.
Mileage? I don't micromanage it. maybe it's 16-18mpg??? Not that much less than the Sti.
The build quality is apparent everywhere: Where a shifter plate in the STI is a piece of plastic with tabs, the RS4 shifter plate (needed to be replaced) is ironically made of carbon fiber with layers above and below - well designed and built, but heavier than it indicates.
Quality, well designed bits, more refined cabin - I wanted that in addition to that glorious V8 - and it looks great from all angles.
I'm sure others will chime in that I need to get a different exhaust, but... the kids got to eat.
First winter coming up.
I'm immensely happy with the RS4.
At one time I had an E30 M3, did track time, did a few Skip Barber open wheel courses. I drive fast but know better than to find the limit on the street (kids need their dad), don't mod my car to death (kids have to eat), don't assign a gender to my cars (kids don't need to look at dad funny), don't street race (kids need their dad).
So with that preamble:
I liked the Sti in the years I had it.
Pros:
-had a nice boxer burble from 30-60 mph.
-Cobb Stage 1 (necessary small amount $) really helped make the stock tune better.
-Fast enough for the street.
-I didn't mind loading compost, bags of soil, packed IKEA loads for relatives in the hatch
-car with snows and Center diff set to "lock" (DCCD) greatly transformed the car in snow - car felt completely planted in the snow
-My wife hated it (more later)
Cons (some may have been addressed in 2010):
-Econobox roots showed up everywhere
-Stock shifter was mush
-car leaned a lot more than I liked
-stock springs were too soft (contemplated an upgrade)
-acceleration was frenetic
-closing a door sounded like, well, an econobox
-not acoustically insulated so well
-Premium stereo/nav seemed like an econobox base system
-found the differential settings DCCD gimmicky - except as above (Tiff Needell said it was subtle)
-found the throttle settings gimmicky (SI-drive) - always set it to S# anyway
-thin gauge body metal
-crappy crappy paint (DR Color Chip could not keep up)
-try a bluetooth conversation at 70 mph or SIRI and hilarity ensues with the responses.
-car looked good, well proportioned, to me only from certain angles- it was a complete shoe in profile
-maybe averaged 17-19 mpg so not as fuel efficient as you may think - I did not micromanage it.
Earlier this year, my wife declared that she hated my car, so I said, jokingly, that I wanted certain Audi that wasn't made anymore or a P-car. One thing led to another and I found a mostly California, low-ish miles RS4. From all I quickly read and have learned, I think the RS4 is pretty bulletproof well past 100K miles - just keep an eye on the usual carbon build-up if you want, DRC recall, service, etc.
Now the RS4 - From all I read since the RS4 came out, I was expecting the S button to crank it up to 11, but in reality, I think it is subtle (checked the flaps and they work)- the cabin is well insulated. Throttle response is better, so I always hit the S button. 0-60 is… pretty…calm.. compared to the Sti. It just pulls differently - of course. BUT comparing the perceptual pulls - getting to 70-80 in the STI is full of sound and fury building up fast. I look down at the RS4 speedometer with the same butt feel and I'm easily doing 90-100 - quietly, almost causally, with much more in reserve. The weight of the steering, DRC, cornering ability just feels better, solid, but never ponderous. There just much more power throughout and especially being above 5500 rpms, you are set to pass, or just grin. The stock RSN-E has its issues but it's waaaay better than the Sti. With the seats folded I am able to carry 4 wheels and tires - and maybe even compost and soil in the future.
Mileage? I don't micromanage it. maybe it's 16-18mpg??? Not that much less than the Sti.
The build quality is apparent everywhere: Where a shifter plate in the STI is a piece of plastic with tabs, the RS4 shifter plate (needed to be replaced) is ironically made of carbon fiber with layers above and below - well designed and built, but heavier than it indicates.
Quality, well designed bits, more refined cabin - I wanted that in addition to that glorious V8 - and it looks great from all angles.
I'm sure others will chime in that I need to get a different exhaust, but... the kids got to eat.
First winter coming up.
I'm immensely happy with the RS4.
11-28-2012, 09:48 PM
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I was going through the EXACT same debate with myself over the last year. Coming from an '07 Legacy GT spec.b I had a pretty good idea of the the subaru had to offer.
Pros: Cheaper maintenance, and more self serviceable, oil, tires etc. Tons of affordable after-market parts. Reliability, especially with the 6MT (subaru 5 speeds are made from glass i've heard, and experienced) Better fuel mileage H4 vs V8, Good electronics! (My rs4's ipod interface/nav/sd card audio/bluetooth mobile is a disaster. Works, but you gotta get used to it... It was miles better in the 1 year older subaru.)500 lbs lighter!
Cons: Big wing/boy racer image. Built as a car that can be great to dive if it had more power, better brakes, more factory-installed features. Rather cheap exterior metal and interior. As mentioned above, gimmicky DCCD/ si-drive. Turbo-lag power band. Subaru turbos, when pushed and not well maintained, have been known to burn out quickly. You just hope for no compressor blades getting thrown into the TMIC/engine. This is why you buy an STi new, not used.
The RS4 is purpose built, not an upgraded lower model, more refined luxury sport sedan. I'm very happy with my purchase.
Pros: Cheaper maintenance, and more self serviceable, oil, tires etc. Tons of affordable after-market parts. Reliability, especially with the 6MT (subaru 5 speeds are made from glass i've heard, and experienced) Better fuel mileage H4 vs V8, Good electronics! (My rs4's ipod interface/nav/sd card audio/bluetooth mobile is a disaster. Works, but you gotta get used to it... It was miles better in the 1 year older subaru.)500 lbs lighter!
Cons: Big wing/boy racer image. Built as a car that can be great to dive if it had more power, better brakes, more factory-installed features. Rather cheap exterior metal and interior. As mentioned above, gimmicky DCCD/ si-drive. Turbo-lag power band. Subaru turbos, when pushed and not well maintained, have been known to burn out quickly. You just hope for no compressor blades getting thrown into the TMIC/engine. This is why you buy an STi new, not used.
The RS4 is purpose built, not an upgraded lower model, more refined luxury sport sedan. I'm very happy with my purchase.
11-30-2012, 04:02 PM
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Drove two STIs (new '12 and used '10) a few monnths back while shopping for the car that ended up being the RS4. They are such different cars in so many ways. If you drive both and are still asking this question, then definitely go with the STI.
But from where you are starting you can't really go wrong with either car as you will be upgrading from the SMG (aka Slow Moving Gearbox).
But from where you are starting you can't really go wrong with either car as you will be upgrading from the SMG (aka Slow Moving Gearbox).
12-02-2012, 06:23 PM
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RS 4 is a much *higher* quality car. The STi is nice but it is not close (and I don't know why Subie doesn't improve on this). A new STi can be over $40k. That is not too far off the price of a well equipped S4.
Drove two STIs (new '12 and used '10) a few monnths back while shopping for the car that ended up being the RS4. They are such different cars in so many ways. If you drive both and are still asking this question, then definitely go with the STI.
But from where you are starting you can't really go wrong with either car as you will be upgrading from the SMG (aka Slow Moving Gearbox).
But from where you are starting you can't really go wrong with either car as you will be upgrading from the SMG (aka Slow Moving Gearbox).
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12-03-2012, 11:06 PM
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Thanks for the feedback all. I am in a rush (gotta get to sleep) so I'll write a quick reply then come back and reply to some points from the posts below.
I understand that the Audi is a more refined vehicle than the Subaru. I know also the direction which cars are taking in this new age. Paddle shift dual clutch gearboxes, high sound insulation, high level of comfort, seamless shifting from one gear to the next etc.
I have driven E92 (and E90) M3 and although the exhaust (not so much the engine itself) sounds amazing, it revs higher and has more power...I prefer my E46 M3. It is smaller, lighter, has a higher pitch screaming race-like sound, and the SMG is fantastic...because unlike dual clutch gearboxes, they are essentially a manual which still gives you that "kick" to remind you you are not in an automatic slush box. And yes, I've driven dual clutch gearboxes and was extremely impressed by the Evo X SST transmission, it's superb, but lacks that "feel" of changing gears.
In any case, I love my M3, and would keep it forever if I had infinite amount of money, however, reality is that I live in Canada and RWD is not the way to go for the winter and a Z06 is 100 times more competent than anything with 4 seats in it. Well...it's more competent than anything...period.
The STI's interiors leave a bit to be desired, however, there are other features which make the car unique and interesting:
a) The boxer rumble is one of the most unique and signature sounds in the world...and yes, even more "unique" than the RS4 V8 sound which sounds like any other high strung V8 out there (not that it sounds bad
)
b) Great mod potential for cheap (I've seen COBB videos on YT showing 400+ WHP quite easily.
c) The Hatch really has a ton of cargo, and with a roof rack...it starts approaching SUV practicality territory.
d) The 3 throttle/map settings allow you to have 3 maps with the flick of a switch. After-market tunes can make those maps even more useful. I.e. you can have a low HP/TQ 'snow" map which I think would be critical to avoiding wheelspin and traction control intervention on snow and ice.
e) DCCD is neat. Sending torque to the rear wheels is always a nice option to have.
Next posts I'll write the things I like about the RS4
I understand that the Audi is a more refined vehicle than the Subaru. I know also the direction which cars are taking in this new age. Paddle shift dual clutch gearboxes, high sound insulation, high level of comfort, seamless shifting from one gear to the next etc.
I have driven E92 (and E90) M3 and although the exhaust (not so much the engine itself) sounds amazing, it revs higher and has more power...I prefer my E46 M3. It is smaller, lighter, has a higher pitch screaming race-like sound, and the SMG is fantastic...because unlike dual clutch gearboxes, they are essentially a manual which still gives you that "kick" to remind you you are not in an automatic slush box. And yes, I've driven dual clutch gearboxes and was extremely impressed by the Evo X SST transmission, it's superb, but lacks that "feel" of changing gears.
In any case, I love my M3, and would keep it forever if I had infinite amount of money, however, reality is that I live in Canada and RWD is not the way to go for the winter and a Z06 is 100 times more competent than anything with 4 seats in it. Well...it's more competent than anything...period.
The STI's interiors leave a bit to be desired, however, there are other features which make the car unique and interesting:
a) The boxer rumble is one of the most unique and signature sounds in the world...and yes, even more "unique" than the RS4 V8 sound which sounds like any other high strung V8 out there (not that it sounds bad
)b) Great mod potential for cheap (I've seen COBB videos on YT showing 400+ WHP quite easily.
c) The Hatch really has a ton of cargo, and with a roof rack...it starts approaching SUV practicality territory.
d) The 3 throttle/map settings allow you to have 3 maps with the flick of a switch. After-market tunes can make those maps even more useful. I.e. you can have a low HP/TQ 'snow" map which I think would be critical to avoiding wheelspin and traction control intervention on snow and ice.
e) DCCD is neat. Sending torque to the rear wheels is always a nice option to have.
Next posts I'll write the things I like about the RS4
12-04-2012, 08:15 AM
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I think you should get a subie ... for the reasons you just outlined. The RS4 and Subie are polar opposites in my mind.
While I appreciate the Subie for what it is and believe it is a fantastic car I personally can't get past the plastic feel and boy racer look. In my opinion there is no way to compare the two cars fairly. They each represent something so completely different that a comparison is kinda silly. Of course just my 2 cents / and that's all it's worth!
While I appreciate the Subie for what it is and believe it is a fantastic car I personally can't get past the plastic feel and boy racer look. In my opinion there is no way to compare the two cars fairly. They each represent something so completely different that a comparison is kinda silly. Of course just my 2 cents / and that's all it's worth!