dbuxton13

I think many of us at least here are doing that. I can't fathom the decision-making process for other Americans (living in the snowy upper half of the States) to buy a car with "master of none" all-seasons. For a sub-$40K car, I get it, economy trumps all, but I'm not talking about that. It's the folks buying a $50K+ range vehicle, and then balking at paying an extra $1500-2000 (average for mid-range) for a much safer second set of winter wheels and tires.

I also bought the car with the dedicated black optic 19" summers, and had an 18" winter set delivered to me in Germany from Tire Rack, ready to mount right after taking delivery of the car. Really the only recourse with a winter delivery, and as pointed out earlier required in most of Europe. Just this morning I was able to enjoy said winter set (Michelin X-Ice Xi3), cruising with confidence into work with moderate snowfall, while other cars along the way were slipping and spinning out (primarily due to their RWD or FWD, even with winter tires). You'll be hard-pressed to find many potholes in Germany, but I'm sure I will appreciate the extra protection of the 18's when I return stateside and am confronted once again with our crumbling infrastructure. Looking forward to mounting the summers back up in a couple months. The single day I drove on them demonstrated the insane level of grip they exert on dry pavement.

markcincinnati

Perhaps American's "reluctance" to swap tires twice yearly is financial -- for folks buying (or, more likely, leasing) $50K+ European cars (and NOT living in Europe, especially Germany) -- but I doubt that is the primary reason for lack of switching. For years now, more and more automakers have been offering virtually all of the cars they sell in the US with all-wheel-drive. Moreover, CUVs, SAVs. and SUVs have made great strides -- perhaps now surpassing sedan sales (and many of the sedans are AWD, remember). Hold that thought.

Yes, our roads (especially anywhere there is snowfall) are pock-marked, but, our roads have so damn many potholes because they are typically well-plowed.

So, you couple AWD's proliferation with the growing market-share of "SUV's" (and their offspring), with well-cleared (but often pot-hole covered) roads, with better and better all-season tires (often included as standard equipment on both -- often leased -- cars and SUVs), with the cost (in time and, frankly, inconvenience -- which is probably a bigger deal than the cost at this price point) of owning two sets of wheels and tires (and for a two-car family that means garage space requirements for 8 wheels and tires, year-round), with no law, regulation or rule requiring two sets of wheels/tires, and the "equation" comes out in favor of only a small (perhaps very small) minority of folks who even consider "winter tires" (unless the drivers are above a certain latitude.)

I visited St. Paul one winter and was met at the airport by my client, who happened to arrive in an Audi A6 mounted with four winter tires. My client said he was increasingly among a declining number of drivers who actually maintained this time-tested practice, because of "great" road clearing and "climate change" -- so there you have it (another data-point suggesting the declining popularity of an unpopular practice for Americans: changing tires/wheels twice per year.)

I grew up in a small town north of Dayton, Ohio. We had a one-car garage. My dad's Chrysler Newport (RWD) underwent the twice-yearly change of the rear wheels/tires. I wonder if dad would do this today, were he still living? My assumption is, "probably not."

I changed my OEM summer only P7's (at about 8,500 miles) to four Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+'s. The stickiness of the new "no-season" tires exceeded the "summer" only shoes. I was able to take 90-degree turns (that I was familiar with) at higher speeds with less understeer on the new UHP all-seasons than with the UHP summers. That data point is another reason why so many American drivers on American highways just "don't bother" (and probably don't even consider) with winter tires/wheels.

Having said all of the above, I would generally agree that the approach outlined by a couple of folks here is superior -- but it is just very unlikely to be adopted by more than a few outliers, and that would be in places, perhaps like St. Paul, where winter is a big deal.

I live in a Cincinnati sub-division of 50 houses -- I am familiar with those folks on my street (about 10 houses), most of us have at least one CUV, a couple folks have Ford F-150 "luxury" trucks, and the few remaining folks have vehicles like Accords. Not one of these 20+ cars has winter tires on them. I assume all-season H-rated tires rule, even on my neighbor's new Mercedes.

I look at this way -- I am certain most folks (in my neighborhood) have Bluetooth in their late model vehicles -- most folks won't use hands-free, eyes-free mobile phone capabilities, and this technology is a heck-of-a-lot easier to adopt than swapping wheels/tires (and all of the baggage that goes with). I don't encourage NOT using two-sets of wheels/tires, I also DO encourage the use of hands-free, eyes-free telephoning while driving (if you must). But, the reality is that Americans are loathe to use two sets of wheels/tires and also are basically unwilling to use Bluetooth while driving (other than for listening to iTunres, I'd imagine).

Maybe our American living overseas will continue the practice of swapping tires and wheels twice yearly once returning to the US -- I'd be willing to bet, howver, that even this individual will, eventually, let that practice slide (no pun intended.)

njspeedfreak

I've been using a dedicated set of winter wheels and tires for almost the last 20 years now, across 3 different S4's and now an S5. I'm convinced that in the long run this is just as economical as running a set of All Seasons year round and probably more so when you factor in the potential savings to your OEM wheels if you live in a pothole prone area. I use the winter wheels for 1/3 of the year (4 months), so instead of burning through 4 sets of All Seasons during the 5 years I keep a car, I burn through one set of winter tires and 3 sets of summer tires. I always end up with a new set of cheap winter wheels for each car so that's another $500 total, some of which I can get back if the wheels are still in good enough shape to resell when I trade the car in.

So money not being an issue, the only compelling reason for all seasons are a) no need for storage and b) not having to change wheels twice a year. And with a decent hydraulic jack I can change all 4 wheels in less time than it takes me to wash the car.

markcincinnati

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The compelling reason is, for want of a better -- and less judgemental -- word: Laziness.

It has to be, really, or, it has to be a "why bother?" kind of thing. So if it isn't laziness it's, folks just have so many things on their plates (especially if they have soccer aged kids or "competitive dancing" aged kids) that the time required to do as "we should" isn't available. Or, even if there is enough time, people probably just do something else -- it's an opportunity-cost kind of thing. My wife's SQ5 with the Michelin UHP "no-seasons" has never met a snow drift it couldn't ford. Of course, here in SW Ohio, we rarely have more than a 3 or 4-inch snowfall -- and even one of those "ain't no thang" after 24-hours, at most.

Man, you are making me feel guilty for being so "lazy" -- but, given the choice of sleeping in on Saturday or swapping wheels and tires (and how would I get them to the dealer or tire store and then how would I get the other set home?), well, now, "where's that snooze button again?"

jayhawkmd

So true. I own a hydraulic jack and a torque wrench and can do it very quickly at home, plus it's an excuse to screw around with my car in the garage without the kids pestering me to do other things. I have gotten to a point where I enjoy the benefits of winter tires enough that I even bought a set of wheels/Michelin X-ice for my wife's minivan. She thought I was crazy when I did it, but once she drove it in the snow with them equipped, she thought it was 100% worth it. To each their own, but economically it's closer to a wash than many think.

Mark does have a point about overall ease with all-seasons, and that's the true tradeoff one makes by running them. I almost didn't buy the wheels/tires for the minivan for that reason, but in the end decided the improved winter stopping/handling benefits were worth the effort. Storage also can be a real issue. I'm fortunate enough to have a 3.5 car garage with ~12ft ceilings, so it was easy to mount racks up out of the way to hold wheel sets. To each their own, that's certainly why UHP all seasons are made! I live in Kansas City and am certainly in the minority in using seasonal tires on my vehicles, although my Audi dealership just told me they recently had to buy a new storage unit to hold all the off-season wheel sets they store for customers.

njspeedfreak

Nothing wrong with lazy. It's something that I strive for whenever possible. But I'll bet a lot of people who think that swapping wheels twice a year is some major task haven't actually swapped wheels except in the case of some unplanned crisis like a flat tire. It takes me about 10 minutes per wheel, plus another 10 to pull out the jack and breaker bar and then put it all away when I'm done. Less than an hour to do the whole job soup to nuts. 2 hours every year. I'll bet many people on this forum spend that much time each week with the wash buckets and wax rags.

One other side benefit - it's very easy to clean the wheels when they are off the car. A good scrub from both sides and a coat of wax before I stack them in the corner of the garage. Really helps them stay looking good for a long time.

markcincinnati

My next door neighbor is a dentist -- I just can't see him changing a wheel on his car. My other neighbor is an executive for a global cosmetics corporation -- and he commutes to Toronto and back here to Cincinnati almost every week. Next year he gets South America. His luxury vehicle is a new, decked out, four-door, leather-lined Ford F150. We have, as you know, an S4 and SQ5. Only rarely do these folks even clear the driveway -- the retired couples on the street are the only ones who do that.

I'm sticking with my story that folks have so many things competing for their time (and the "real estate" required for 8 wheels and tires is considerable) that year 'round rubber is an acceptable compromise. I applaud you folks willing to pony up the resources of time, space, and money (although I read the argument suggesting the cost is virtually a wash) to swap tires twice yearly. I have decided to live vicariously through you and will tell anyone who will listen of the merits of tire swapping. At the Porsche dealer, I understand it is possible to have them store your "second set" at the dealer (I suppose there is a fee for this, although it may be a perk). If that option was offered at the Audi dealer, I wonder how many folks would opt for the maximum in traction.

mplsbrian

njspeedfreak

That post from the S5 forums is exactly why I'm so damn adamant when it comes to winter wheels and tires. I had my own similar experiences that fortunately turned out a little better and didn't result in a totaled car, but it was enough to convince me that the 2 hours a year was worth it, even if it meant re-prioritizing a few other things that I was hoping to get done with that time.

In terms of storage - it's absolutely true that not everyone has space for 4 extra wheels. Apartment dwellers come to mind here. But really, how much space are we talking about here? I store my wheels by stacking them flat, one on top of another. So it takes up a space of approximately 2 square feet and sits about 3 feet high. As an added bonus I can use the spokes on the wheels as slots to hold brooms and hockey sticks. Or just cover the top wheel with a thin piece of plywood and you have an instant shelf. Not enough space in the garage? What about a small corner of the backyard then? A simple chain and a cover will keep them secure and protected until the next swap out.

markcincinnati

I completely agree -- as they say, we are in violent agreement -- that most of us are simply not motivated to do this. Previously, I attributed this to "laziness" then softened the reason to "opportunity cost." Anyone who can spend any time at all posting on one of these boards has, perhaps, too much time on their hands. But another way to look at it is that it is, generally, a great mental diversion (and often I learn things) -- some people do drugs or other "not good for them" activities. Being here on Audiworld is helpful (often) and harmless (almost always) and does not immediately cost any $. Some of the things I have learned (like not spending any more money on +sized wheels and tires only to **** the money away once I hit a pothole with a glancing blow on Interstate - 71 North) have actually saved money.

I read about the "poor bastard" who totaled his S5 -- I declined to comment only because I couldn't think of anything to say (imagine that!) that would not have been rather unsympathetic. Our dealer -- in the salesreps "horizontal" style oh-so-gently tries to talk people out of both the 19" upgrade (but of course that takes money out of his own pocket) and tries to talk people into the All-season tires (because doing so creates repeat buyers.)

How is it that "you" (not you literally) can afford an Audi "S" anything and be so ignorant of the summer-rubber-syndrome we "drone on" about here for days and days (every year or so it seems). Yet, I am not unsympathetic to his plight -- I just can't get much empathy going. And, even though I want to say the dealer should've done a better job "educating" and informing their customer, all you need to get one of these cars is a driver's license, license plates, insurance, and a check.

I would argue "we" all need informing, training, and some school pertaining to: ABS, ESC, Torque-management, Tires/Wheels (including air-pressure and TPMS and the impact of cold, hot, under/over inflation and the differences in HP and UHP all-season and summer ONLY shoes), Service intervals, All of the Fluids the car relies upon, all of the driver assistance (aka the "nannies') features both standard and optioned on your car. The actual list of what ALL of us need to know to improve is much longer. But, we need to know the basics that would have possibly prevented the guy from killing his new S5. Of course the marketing literature, the website, etc., do "caution" customers about Summer tires and offer up all-seasons (or as some here call, "no-seasons.") But what is typically offered is just leading the horse to water -- no one is ever forced to take a drink unless or until a law is passed (usually one that restricts us in some way) or until a hard lesson (totalling your car) is learned.

Perhaps relevant:

I signed my wife and myself up for a two-day X-drive training when she got her third AWD BMW (a 2008 X3). They paired us up (not with spouses), and the woman I was paired with said she had a Cayenne and an X5. There were three of us in the X5 we were getting some training in, the instructor, my "partner" and me. First test was to accelerate to 50MPH by the time an orange cone was reached on a closed track and once we reached the orange cone we were to slam on the brakes as hard as possible and keep them on until the car came to a full-stop. My partner had never experienced ABS before (odd, considering she was from LA) and the moment she pressed on the brake and felt the (familiar, to me, at least) pulsing she completely let up on the brake and, ran over the row of orange cones indicating that she would have "rear-ended" another vehicle. It took her four tries to "not react by lifting off of the brake" before she could actually get the car to stop before hitting the cones. Those early tries with her, made me feel we were a bowling ball sending a row of cones all over, time and again. The instructor told her that when she felt the pulse her next action was to press the brake pedal even harder which he said would shorten the stopping distance. I don't recall if the "brake assist" technology had yet been adopted (these were 2009 BMWs).

Everyone should have to go through "flight school" to learn the basics of ABS/ESC Brake-assist, etc.

I took the Audi driving school on ice in Seefeld, Austria four times now and it never ceases to amaze me how fewer and fewer participants have ever heard of, let alone experienced the concept of "turning INTO a skid," which is one of the early skills taught and tested at the school. The concept is first taught in the classroom -- but, frankly, I almost think this is a waste for most folks, they need to "feel it" for themselves. Of course, our classes discuss the whys and wherefores of using "studded" winter tires when you are attempting to navigate on sheer ice (as we are when we take the Audi driving school).

I'm POSITIVE most folks here know what this phrase means: "Dude, there's a fresh snowfall, let's go over to the mall parking lot and do some donuts!" Today, it seems like "most folks" think this means buying some donuts and eating them. The truth of the matter is that "doing donuts" in my dad's RWD Chrysler Newport taught me about over and understeer and it also taught me how to "turn into a skid" to stop doing donuts and turning in the opposite direction to induce and sustain the donut activity.

Yet people (the top 5%, perhaps) have so damn much money they can afford to buy a new S5 with summer tires and cluelessly drive it in the cold and snow/ice/low coefficient of friction unaware that the tires have become brittle and useless. Should we fault folks for being ignorant -- YES, because it is (or at least it can be) a temporary condition. We can't fault folks for being stupid, though. Best not to say anything. Best advice is to require that dealers offer "training" in the use and care of/for a new Audi -- of course, this would be expensive and if it were offered, I would assume the customers would be not too keen on paying for something they THINK they're already "good enough" at.

I can't wait for level-5 automation, is what all of this kind of thinking and dredging up my personal experiences (and biases) pertaining to "safety and performance" driving is doing.

I'll close this line of thought thusly: I really feel for the person who totaled his new S5 (apparently no one was hurt or at least not hurt seriously, at least that is my impression), but at the same time I have a very very tiny inclination to want to wring his neck while screaming "what were you thinking?" Then, I see myself apologizing and taking it out on the dealer, wringing his neck while screaming the same thing. Once again, I then apologize to the dealer for my actions and throw my hands up, look to the sky, and say out loud "We're doomed."

Of course, I also am reminded of Pogo who says: "We have met the enemy and he is us” -- which reminds me of the phrase: "We get the government we deserve . . ."

We get the drivers we deserve . . .

I remain, Often Wrong, but Never Uncertain.

- Mark