RS - Worth It?
#21
Let me start by saying I have a B9 S4 and really like it and don't want this to sound arrogant. I think Audi is doing the same thing that MB is doing and BMW will likely do with their 3/4 series before (as they are already doing it with the 2 series). The base engine choice (excluding diesels) for BMW, Audi and MB are the model that 95% of the buying market wants. Whether an A4, 330i, C300 with a 4 banger turbo. They are a nice cars, quick enough, look sporty and feel like they have enough luxury to justify the price vs a Honda/Toyota.
You want a bit more motor, you used to just get the same car with a 6 cylinder engine choice (think A6 2.0T vs A6 3.0T), but now, you actually get some badges too: S4, AMG C43 and 340i with M sport trim. it will cost another $10K and you get more motor, bigger brakes, sportier seats and a bunch of badges that used to only be on their special cars. It started with the S Line, and M Sport packages and now they have further diluted the brand of their motorsport lines (S, AMG & M) for marketing and to sell more cars. But if you want the hot ride, you step up to the RS5, AMG C63 or M3/4 and pay another $10K. They don't want you to see a big difference in look - just more performance.
Same is true with A3, S3, RS3 and BMW 230i, M240i and M2
I have raced BMWs with SCCA and BMW Club Racing and I have been a DE instructor for many years (not currently) and I agree with a previously poster, only a few people will really understand why the RS,5, M3 etc are worth the money. For most of us the 4cyl turbo is more than enough and our S4s are overkill.
I owned a first generation e30 M3 and well as a 2nd gen e36 M3. When I bought the e36, my license plates were 332is as it was really just a hopped up 328is and we all said M was for marketing. Now with Audi, I say S is for sales... and with that, I love my B9 S4. It has more power than I need for a daily driver. It will likely never see a race track as is true with 95% of the S4s sold.
Vince
You want a bit more motor, you used to just get the same car with a 6 cylinder engine choice (think A6 2.0T vs A6 3.0T), but now, you actually get some badges too: S4, AMG C43 and 340i with M sport trim. it will cost another $10K and you get more motor, bigger brakes, sportier seats and a bunch of badges that used to only be on their special cars. It started with the S Line, and M Sport packages and now they have further diluted the brand of their motorsport lines (S, AMG & M) for marketing and to sell more cars. But if you want the hot ride, you step up to the RS5, AMG C63 or M3/4 and pay another $10K. They don't want you to see a big difference in look - just more performance.
Same is true with A3, S3, RS3 and BMW 230i, M240i and M2
I have raced BMWs with SCCA and BMW Club Racing and I have been a DE instructor for many years (not currently) and I agree with a previously poster, only a few people will really understand why the RS,5, M3 etc are worth the money. For most of us the 4cyl turbo is more than enough and our S4s are overkill.
I owned a first generation e30 M3 and well as a 2nd gen e36 M3. When I bought the e36, my license plates were 332is as it was really just a hopped up 328is and we all said M was for marketing. Now with Audi, I say S is for sales... and with that, I love my B9 S4. It has more power than I need for a daily driver. It will likely never see a race track as is true with 95% of the S4s sold.
Vince
#22
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
I've changed my mind a bit on what I would like Audi "marketing" (mostly) and "engineering" (somewhat) to offer those of us who love our S cars but really would like just a bit more. Of course, this (that follows) assumes you think the RS is -- from a differentiation perspective -- is just a "bit more" than an S. I'm not suggesting the performance is just a bit more, I'm stating I think the RS is visually differentiated just a bit more over an S.
The premise, my nomenclature, was to create a "bump" up from the S car that provided some of the improvements (the "invisible" improvements) offered in the RS, and some more of the RS "cues" -- I called it an S4+ after having been at the Audi Driving School in Seefeld, Austria and having our Audi chaperone pull in to the hotel parking lot with his S6+ (which was a sedan, not an Avant).
Audi, based on the data points in Glisse's posts, seems to get "around a 6%" take rate for the "real" S cars. For a few years, this very low take rate (in the US, to be sure) was even lower. When I bought my first S6, I was told there were only 2,000 of them imported (and they all sold-out quickly) -- it's hard to improve your sales if you limit your supply. Back then, the S6 had a unique interior and only subtle differences on the exterior. Today, the RS5 interior looks virtually the same as the S5 (or S4) interior and the exterior has some nice styling cues.
As time passed, customers grew aware of the "S" cars (I am speaking of the US customers) and although the importation limits were lifted, sales of "S" cars were somewhat restrained simply because of their asking price. The delta between an A6 and an S6 in terms of performance was huge (and they ONLY came with manual transmissions) but the price differences were seen to be "dear" -- the bottom line was, the "S" cars were desirable but, for many, unaffordable. I traded my S6 in on a 1997 A8 (big mistake in hindsight) in 1996.
Someone in marketing got the brilliant idea to create a "model extension" called S-Line. Those of you who remember the early years of S-Line will, I hope, surely agree that checking off S-Line was really "a nothing burger." I ordered a 2009 A4 2.0T Prestige with "Sport Package" and I got the sport suspension, sport seats and 19" wheels with summer only Max-Performance Dunlops, tailpipe (chrome) extensions and "needle sweep" of the tach and speedo. I did not get the S-Line badge on my front fender, nor the "special" rear diffuser (those were only available as part of the S-Line package.)
I believe I paid a four-figure number (beginning with a 1) for the sport package. S-Line was $2,995 in 2008. A full-on "proper" S-Line package was very attractive and such a vehicle if de-badged (another popular "option") looked very much like an S4 (until you saw that it only had one dual-outlet tailpipe, compared to the S4's twin dual-outlet pipes.
The sport suspension in S-Line (or as part of the sport package option), when put on a car equipped with Audi Drive Select (the first year it was offered in the US -- on the B8 A4 2.0T) was probably still not AS SPORTY as the real S4's, but it was close enough for jazz. An A4 Prestige, S-Line with tinted windows looked "very S4-esq" and virtually all of the A4's my dealership sold that year had the S-Line package (not the "Premiums," of course.) There was NO improvement in the 2.0T -- for S-Line was largely (although I did appreciate the suspension, wheels, tires and seats) cosmetic. S-Line has spread, hasn't it, to virtually every Audi (that is NOT a bona fide S car), either as "standard" equipment or simply the cars that the dealers configure (universally).
So what I am looking for -- and willing to pay for -- is an offering called "RS-Line" (available ONLY on legitimate S cars). It ought to allow customers to order an RS-Line with or without the Black Optics package, too. RS-Line would lower the center of gravity (not as much as the RS cars, but more than the S cars.) Transmission software: Tweak it. Virtual cockpit: Tweak it. Horsepower and torque: Tweak them (increase both by 25 and call it a day). Exterior styling: give it the RS grille treatment with the "quattro" lettering; swap out the dual dual tailpipes for the dual oval tailpipes. Also offer one or two RS-Line unique exterior colors and for pity's sake don't drop the red leather interior option. Red calipers, check. Unique wheels (but put a sexy 18" option on the list) would add perhaps another $800 if the customer wanted "more." Sequential front and rear turn signals. Sport differential (extra cost, sorry). Put a big damn bow on the thing and charge $3,995 more (plus an upcharge for the glintzy wheels and truly special color offered -- perhaps that deep emerald green pearl color that is often shown on the true RS5.)
The performance would improve somewhat, the look would morph (much like the S-Line did for the unadorned A4's) and the overall package (on top of an S4 Prestige) would be less than a half-step, but maybe about 25% to 30% of the cost of the FULL ON ***** TO THE WALL RS.
For those who have no issue with the value prop of the RS over the S, there would remain a more capable car, and for many of us (probably a lot more than 1%) the "S4 with the RS-Line Package" would be "just right."
Signed,
Goldilocks
The premise, my nomenclature, was to create a "bump" up from the S car that provided some of the improvements (the "invisible" improvements) offered in the RS, and some more of the RS "cues" -- I called it an S4+ after having been at the Audi Driving School in Seefeld, Austria and having our Audi chaperone pull in to the hotel parking lot with his S6+ (which was a sedan, not an Avant).
Audi, based on the data points in Glisse's posts, seems to get "around a 6%" take rate for the "real" S cars. For a few years, this very low take rate (in the US, to be sure) was even lower. When I bought my first S6, I was told there were only 2,000 of them imported (and they all sold-out quickly) -- it's hard to improve your sales if you limit your supply. Back then, the S6 had a unique interior and only subtle differences on the exterior. Today, the RS5 interior looks virtually the same as the S5 (or S4) interior and the exterior has some nice styling cues.
As time passed, customers grew aware of the "S" cars (I am speaking of the US customers) and although the importation limits were lifted, sales of "S" cars were somewhat restrained simply because of their asking price. The delta between an A6 and an S6 in terms of performance was huge (and they ONLY came with manual transmissions) but the price differences were seen to be "dear" -- the bottom line was, the "S" cars were desirable but, for many, unaffordable. I traded my S6 in on a 1997 A8 (big mistake in hindsight) in 1996.
Someone in marketing got the brilliant idea to create a "model extension" called S-Line. Those of you who remember the early years of S-Line will, I hope, surely agree that checking off S-Line was really "a nothing burger." I ordered a 2009 A4 2.0T Prestige with "Sport Package" and I got the sport suspension, sport seats and 19" wheels with summer only Max-Performance Dunlops, tailpipe (chrome) extensions and "needle sweep" of the tach and speedo. I did not get the S-Line badge on my front fender, nor the "special" rear diffuser (those were only available as part of the S-Line package.)
I believe I paid a four-figure number (beginning with a 1) for the sport package. S-Line was $2,995 in 2008. A full-on "proper" S-Line package was very attractive and such a vehicle if de-badged (another popular "option") looked very much like an S4 (until you saw that it only had one dual-outlet tailpipe, compared to the S4's twin dual-outlet pipes.
The sport suspension in S-Line (or as part of the sport package option), when put on a car equipped with Audi Drive Select (the first year it was offered in the US -- on the B8 A4 2.0T) was probably still not AS SPORTY as the real S4's, but it was close enough for jazz. An A4 Prestige, S-Line with tinted windows looked "very S4-esq" and virtually all of the A4's my dealership sold that year had the S-Line package (not the "Premiums," of course.) There was NO improvement in the 2.0T -- for S-Line was largely (although I did appreciate the suspension, wheels, tires and seats) cosmetic. S-Line has spread, hasn't it, to virtually every Audi (that is NOT a bona fide S car), either as "standard" equipment or simply the cars that the dealers configure (universally).
So what I am looking for -- and willing to pay for -- is an offering called "RS-Line" (available ONLY on legitimate S cars). It ought to allow customers to order an RS-Line with or without the Black Optics package, too. RS-Line would lower the center of gravity (not as much as the RS cars, but more than the S cars.) Transmission software: Tweak it. Virtual cockpit: Tweak it. Horsepower and torque: Tweak them (increase both by 25 and call it a day). Exterior styling: give it the RS grille treatment with the "quattro" lettering; swap out the dual dual tailpipes for the dual oval tailpipes. Also offer one or two RS-Line unique exterior colors and for pity's sake don't drop the red leather interior option. Red calipers, check. Unique wheels (but put a sexy 18" option on the list) would add perhaps another $800 if the customer wanted "more." Sequential front and rear turn signals. Sport differential (extra cost, sorry). Put a big damn bow on the thing and charge $3,995 more (plus an upcharge for the glintzy wheels and truly special color offered -- perhaps that deep emerald green pearl color that is often shown on the true RS5.)
The performance would improve somewhat, the look would morph (much like the S-Line did for the unadorned A4's) and the overall package (on top of an S4 Prestige) would be less than a half-step, but maybe about 25% to 30% of the cost of the FULL ON ***** TO THE WALL RS.
For those who have no issue with the value prop of the RS over the S, there would remain a more capable car, and for many of us (probably a lot more than 1%) the "S4 with the RS-Line Package" would be "just right."
Signed,
Goldilocks
Last edited by markcincinnati; 03-16-2018 at 08:57 AM.
#23
In my case as I noted above I love my S4 and can't justify the RS5 (or RS4 if that had it) based on what/how I intend to use my daily driver. I do plan to address the main thing I don't like about my car which is ride height and will swap out the springs.
#24
AudiWorld Super User
And that's really what it boils down to. To ask if an RS5 is worth it is really kind of a pointless question. The honest answer is no in the USA. Regardless of what I think of the new RS5, RS is not about interior and exterior differences. It's about performance. RS stands for Rennsport (racing sport). They are not really even great track cars. Audi RSs have always been more of a point and shoot weapon and they are heavy. They are most at home on a mountain or canyon road and of course the German Autobahn. Just to give you an idea, I may have mentioned this before, after I took delivery of my RS5 in Ingolstadt I visited a customer of mine for the following two weeks. I commuted to the customer site from my rented apartment. Average commute speed north of 150 mph. The car felt even more buttoned down and confident at those speeds than it did at lower speeds. That's what an RS is about. Back here in the USA, I'm an avid canyon carver so that's where I get my thrills out of an RS. That the view out the window is no different during regular daily driving is not even remotely an issue for me. It's in fact a plus, because I also do long road trips and that the car is calm and not much different from an A5 in those situations is what I really like about it. I'm fortunate that I don't have a commute. My commute involves getting out of bed and walking down the hallway and then start working in my pajamas . RS are about range. In daily driving they are not much different from an S and even an A, but they have a lot more headroom and wake up if you take them on a road where they can shine. Most people in the USA are like you. They live in a flat part of the country with boring straight roads and slug it out in the commuter traffic every day. To think an RS5 is even remotely worth it for that is quite off the mark, IMHO.
Last edited by superswiss; 03-16-2018 at 10:27 AM.
#26
AudiWorld Super User
Unfortunately, that describes my daily commute in Dallas perfectly. It is important to have a car that accelerates, brakes, and steers well for constant accident avoidance, but an RS is obviously beyond overkill for that application. Although I've been considering replacing my A4 with a B9 S4 since the B9 was announced, I also struggle with the thought that it may be more prudent to move in the opposite direction and replace my A4 with something sensible, yet still competent, like an Accord Touring with the 2.0T. I used to drive through the Green Mountains of Vermont on the weekends, but there are no enjoyable driving roads in my current area.
#27
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
JD: Perhaps an S3 (unless you need a real back seat) would be "just right." For the "once in a while" romp, you would have the goods, but you won't have paid S4 money.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
#28
AudiWorld Super User
I was excited about the S3 when it first released, but I realized that I wouldn't be happy with the interior after seeing that of the B9.
#29
AudiWorld Super User
I can only imagine the backlash of early RS5 adopters if in short order they come out with an RS5 performance with the correct 500+ HP that the standard RS5 should have.
#30
^^
You are the minority. Globally, around 93% of people who buy an Audi think the A models are sufficient, Around 6% of people disagree, and buy an S model. Another 1% disagree with all that, and buy an RS.
I would agree that the people (99%) who don't see the value in an RS should not buy one. I would also agree that people who drive an RS model find it very difficult to return back to an S model.
And finally, seeing I am in such an agreeable mood, I will add that I agree with you. An RS is a very cool car.
You are the minority. Globally, around 93% of people who buy an Audi think the A models are sufficient, Around 6% of people disagree, and buy an S model. Another 1% disagree with all that, and buy an RS.
I would agree that the people (99%) who don't see the value in an RS should not buy one. I would also agree that people who drive an RS model find it very difficult to return back to an S model.
And finally, seeing I am in such an agreeable mood, I will add that I agree with you. An RS is a very cool car.