Shopping next week - Tire questions
11-25-2017, 08:42 PM
#1
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Shopping next week - Tire questions
Hi everyone. I plan on starting to shop next week for a new S4.. I’m looking to do a factory order since I haven’t found what I’m looking for at any tri-state dealers. Cars in stock here either come with the 18” A/S tires or with the 19” summer tires. I definitely do not want 19”s — don’t like the ride quality, and the roads around here are often in poor condition. I plan on leasing, 36 mos. I put about 10K/yr on my cars.
What I would like to do is order the car with the 18” summer tires... I’d like to keep those until next fall and swap them out for what will likely be Conti DWS06 A/S tires. I had two questions — first, on the factory 18” summer tires, what’s the lowest temperature those tires can be driven on? If I optimistically take delivery sometime in March, will the cold temps be a problem? I have a 4x4 truck also until it’s lease is up in May, so that can be used if necessary. Second — can the Conti’s easily take me to 30-32K mikes assuming they go on at around 4-5k miles?
What I would like to do is order the car with the 18” summer tires... I’d like to keep those until next fall and swap them out for what will likely be Conti DWS06 A/S tires. I had two questions — first, on the factory 18” summer tires, what’s the lowest temperature those tires can be driven on? If I optimistically take delivery sometime in March, will the cold temps be a problem? I have a 4x4 truck also until it’s lease is up in May, so that can be used if necessary. Second — can the Conti’s easily take me to 30-32K mikes assuming they go on at around 4-5k miles?
11-26-2017, 07:36 AM
#2
AudiWorld Senior Member
If I optimistically take delivery sometime in March, will the cold temps be a problem?
Second — can the Conti’s easily take me to 30-32K mikes assuming they go on at around 4-5k miles?
11-27-2017, 06:38 AM
#3
I agree with your decision to order the car EXACTLY the way you want it. The good news, too, is that an ordered car can be (should be, in fact) able to be sold to you at the dealer's lowest price since they will have virtually no "holding" costs (floor plan dollars -- borrowed -- won't apply). You made no mention of the Audi Club of North America -- and even if you joined at this point, you would have to wait 6 months to get to the 6% discount offered on an S4 via the ACNA program. Due to the declining popularity of sedans ( CU/SU V's rule, so to speak), the S4 ought to be acquired for 6% off (maybe more) even if you're not in the ACNA.
With respect to the wheels and tires -- your instincts are correct: The 19" tires/wheels are good looking (at least most folks think so), but that is, unfortunately, their contribution -- they increase the unsprung weight and since there is no increase in tread width, they provide negligible handling improvements. The 19" tires cost more, generally do not last as long as the 18" versions and are noisier and do not offer as much "comfort" as the 40 series (18") tires. Unfortunately, the "summer only" tires (including the 18"s) have a very short life-span. The UTQG of the S4's typical OEM tires is around 250 -- mine was 240, in fact. The UTQG is somewhat of a predictor of a tire's likely life-span. The problem, somewhat, is that the UTQG is not always an apples-to-apples number when comparing tires from different manufacturers.
To address the "winter" (or temperature) issue you mention: Summer tires, ALL summer-only tires, loathe cold. The temp often cited as the "usable" lowest is "an average temp of 45 F). Here in Cincinnati, our overnight low was 27 and the forecasted high (today) is 59. Driving your S4 on such a day would probably not be a horrible or unsafe proposition. If your S4 were outside, overnight, the 27 F temp would be a problem in that the tire -- at that temp -- loses flexibility. Driving on the tire at 8 AM assuming the temp has climbed to perhaps 30 F would still be a bit of an issue, however, the tire does warm as it is driven. If you garage your car and the garage temp is 12-15 F higher than the outside temp, you'd probably be "pretty good to go" on such a day as I have just described. Yet, as we near the official start date of winter, your ability to rely on a summer-only tire declines rapidly. In a nutshell, the tires will become essentially brittle as the temp declines. Once you reach a "daytime high" of 40 F or less, the tires become "low performance" -- frankly, they become a liability to cornering, stopping and overall comfort.
Audi's choice of summer only tires is usually pretty good. You can usually check out their choice of OEM shoes on TireRack and you will find the tires they mount are usually in the "top-tier" of performance. Unfortunately, some of the tires your Audi will likely come with are "euro only" versions. My S4, for example, came with Pirelli P7 tires. The EXACT tire mine came with is not available from TireRack, although there are "similar" Pirelli tires (based on rating and UTQG) offered by TireRack which may give you an idea of what to expect from the OEM rubber.
The usable life of the OEM Summer-Only tires is (in my experience) 12 to 14,000 miles. Although the OEM's can become quite noisy after 10-11,000 miles, which is annoying. You may (MAY) get over 15,000 miles on the OEM summer only tires -- as is often said: Depending upon several variables that may exist. People who say they get 20,000 miles out of the OEM summer only tires are likely in the minority or are more tolerant than I of the noise and performance/comfort declines north of 14,000 miles.
Now, to your current thoughts on the replacement tires.
Three tires (all available in 245 x 40 x 18" size) seem to be the likely "optimal" tires for those of us who live in the "all-season" geography of the US. These tires are:
Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+
Pirelli PZERO All-season Plus
They are "close" in price.
They are also "close" in performance
They have "high" (~500) UTQG durability ratings.
I have direct, personal experience with the Continentals and the Michelins.
I have had three sets of the DWS 06s and two sets of the Michelins. Currently I have the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires on a 2018 S4 and a 2018 SQ5. Both of these cars were special ordered with the 18" (S4) and 20" (SQ5) factory OEM wheels with the "summer tire" option ticked. The S4 came with Pirelli P7's and the SQ5 came with Continental (never heard of them and couldn't find them online) summer only tires. These OEM tires were pretty quiet and seemed to be good performers and pretty good at providing comfort on interstate highways.
At 11,000+ miles on the SQ5, we went to our Audi dealer and "negotiated" an installed price for new Extreme Contact DWS 06s that was $52 higher than ordering them from the TireRack and having the dealer install them. Since the total price was in the $1,000 neighborhood, we were seriously considering the dealer's offer (we've purchased 33 Audis from this dealer since 1977, so we have an investment in and benefit from "dealer good will" allowances, from time to time). We had already had three sets of the Continentals (one on my 2014 S4 and two on my wife's 2014 SQ5) and we have nothing but good words to say about the Continentals.
The internet is a great research tool and did "rank" the above-noted tires on several sites -- they were, always, in the top-five, often in the top-three. One tire, of the three, always came in at #1, however, and that tire was the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. Consumer Reports, too, liked these tires -- they seemed to me, however, to write favorably about the Pirelli in terms of its "quietness". And, the Pirelli did seem to be a better performer (other than in snow) than the Contis.
As long-time members of Costco, we happened to be at one of our three local stores and we decided to get quotes on the Michelin's (I had already worked up quotes for these tires from TireRack). As "luck" would have it the manager mentioned that there would be a $70 off plus $.01 installation (per tire) sale commencing on 11/17 and running through 11/27. We had Costco, then, write up a Michelin quote for our 2018 S4 and SQ5. I then went to my Audi dealer to get a quote for the installation of (any-brand) tires including mounting, balancing (road force) and an all-wheel alignment.
The all-wheel alignment was presented as a separate line item at my request.
The price difference was hundreds of dollars (favoring Costco).
I then looked up the difference between the Hunter (road force) balancing technology and the Michelin "certified" (their words, not mine) mounting and "radar/sonar" balancing technology. Costco -- a Michelin Certified retailer -- seems to be neutral with respect to which technology for balancing they prefer. I looked up as much data as I could find with google and then I talked to both Costco's tire dept manager and my service adviser at my Audi dealer. The outcome of the research and conversations led me to believe that the Costco "sonar" approach and the road force balancing approach generally are thought to both be acceptable. What seemed to be not recommended was simple "spin balancing". Road force balancing seems, intuitively, to possibly be able to get that last tiny bit of "perfection" out of a tire/wheel -- but to actually get benefit from it is generally noticeable at very high speeds. You can find proponents of both techniques/technologies. The point is, we could get 8 tires mounted and "sonar" balanced for $.08. This turns out to be a "labor" savings north of $200. In short, Costco had the lowest price for the base tire (lower than the delivered price from TireRack and lower, by far, than the tires from the Audi dealer) and the instant $70 rebate plus a $.04 per car installation charge meant Costco was the price winner and champion by a sizable margin.
Our thoughts: If the "sonar" balancing is insufficient (in feel and performance) we can still get the road force balancing at the dealer for the already quoted price -- the all-wheel alignment costs are unchanged regardless of the source of the tires.
We purchased four Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+'s for the SQ5 -- it took one business day for these tires to arrive at Costco. We had them installed, which included "sonar" balanced, nitrogen inflated, and lug-nut torqued efforts by the Michelin Certified technician (his certificate was proudly mounted on the wall to underscore Costco's commitment to the Michelin program). We were then instructed to drive 25 miles and come back to Costco for possible inflation (pressure) adjustment and lug-nut re-torquing.
We did this "test drive" and included a "farr-lick" of 95MPH on an open part of Interstate 71 north. We returned to Costco for the aforementioned tire-pressure adjustment, resetting of the TPMS and retorquing of the lug-nuts.
Believe it or not, we have already put more than 1,000 miles on the SQ5 with the new Michelin's -- AND, in the meantime, I ordered a set of four of these tires (245 x 40 x 18") for my 2018 S4. I have about 300 miles on them on this vehicle.
These Michelin Ultra-High Performance all-season tires are transformative. Every aspect of the driving experience on both "S" cars is improved. Both my wife and I believe we're now in "danger" of earning a speeding ticket because these tires make driving at 90MPH feel "about the same" as driving at 65 to 70MPH (both of our S's are Prestige, which, as you know, includes dual pane front window glass) the experience is so quiet.
Comfort and quiet are certainly important aspects -- for most people who buy these vehicles, I would assume -- but performance is also one of the primary reasons folks buy Audi S cars. If you are an S4 (or SQ5) owner or soon-to-be owner, either luxury or sportiness will be your #1 reason for buying and #2 will be what's left. In my case, I wanted sportiness and the luxury offered by a Premium car.
With the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires the driving experience exceeds the OEM experience noticeably, here's the difference:
Turn-in is immediate, there is virtually no vagueness -- what used to require "X" amount of steering wheel travel, now requires ".8X" (or less) to accomplish the same amount of vehicle response. By comparison the Continental DWS 06s were about the same as the OEM shoes in this respect.
These tires are the considerably quieter than the OEM's and -- with substantial experience with the DWS 06s -- quieter than the Contis, by far.
The Michelins allow higher cornering speeds than the P7s without protest and without the sensation that the tires were being pushed beyond their limits -- I dare say these Pilot Sports could probably "almost pass" as UHP summer-only tires they're so good. They exceed the performance capabilities of the DWS 06s with ease.
I have no experience with the Pireilli PZERO All-season Plus tires, I believe TireRack ranks them #5 in their list of Ultra-High Performance A/S tires. The Michelin's are -- at this time -- #1 and the Contis are either in the #2 or #3 spot. Other tests rate the PZEROs higher than the Contis -- but these tests usually don't consider snow traction, one of the Pirelli's lower ranked "talents".
Overall, driving with these Michelins has made me (and my wife) believers. As good as the DWS 06 tires are, the 3+ tires are simply better.
I will have to report, later, on the Costco "package" which includes lifetime free rotations and maintenance of the OEM experience and anything that might entail (at no additional charge).
The all-wheel alignment is something I recommend regardless of your tire choice and regardless of where you have the tires installed and regardless of your choice of balancing technology -- but it's your money, so do what you feel is affordable and appropriate.
Congratulations on your order -- you'll love the S4.
With respect to the wheels and tires -- your instincts are correct: The 19" tires/wheels are good looking (at least most folks think so), but that is, unfortunately, their contribution -- they increase the unsprung weight and since there is no increase in tread width, they provide negligible handling improvements. The 19" tires cost more, generally do not last as long as the 18" versions and are noisier and do not offer as much "comfort" as the 40 series (18") tires. Unfortunately, the "summer only" tires (including the 18"s) have a very short life-span. The UTQG of the S4's typical OEM tires is around 250 -- mine was 240, in fact. The UTQG is somewhat of a predictor of a tire's likely life-span. The problem, somewhat, is that the UTQG is not always an apples-to-apples number when comparing tires from different manufacturers.
To address the "winter" (or temperature) issue you mention: Summer tires, ALL summer-only tires, loathe cold. The temp often cited as the "usable" lowest is "an average temp of 45 F). Here in Cincinnati, our overnight low was 27 and the forecasted high (today) is 59. Driving your S4 on such a day would probably not be a horrible or unsafe proposition. If your S4 were outside, overnight, the 27 F temp would be a problem in that the tire -- at that temp -- loses flexibility. Driving on the tire at 8 AM assuming the temp has climbed to perhaps 30 F would still be a bit of an issue, however, the tire does warm as it is driven. If you garage your car and the garage temp is 12-15 F higher than the outside temp, you'd probably be "pretty good to go" on such a day as I have just described. Yet, as we near the official start date of winter, your ability to rely on a summer-only tire declines rapidly. In a nutshell, the tires will become essentially brittle as the temp declines. Once you reach a "daytime high" of 40 F or less, the tires become "low performance" -- frankly, they become a liability to cornering, stopping and overall comfort.
Audi's choice of summer only tires is usually pretty good. You can usually check out their choice of OEM shoes on TireRack and you will find the tires they mount are usually in the "top-tier" of performance. Unfortunately, some of the tires your Audi will likely come with are "euro only" versions. My S4, for example, came with Pirelli P7 tires. The EXACT tire mine came with is not available from TireRack, although there are "similar" Pirelli tires (based on rating and UTQG) offered by TireRack which may give you an idea of what to expect from the OEM rubber.
The usable life of the OEM Summer-Only tires is (in my experience) 12 to 14,000 miles. Although the OEM's can become quite noisy after 10-11,000 miles, which is annoying. You may (MAY) get over 15,000 miles on the OEM summer only tires -- as is often said: Depending upon several variables that may exist. People who say they get 20,000 miles out of the OEM summer only tires are likely in the minority or are more tolerant than I of the noise and performance/comfort declines north of 14,000 miles.
Now, to your current thoughts on the replacement tires.
Three tires (all available in 245 x 40 x 18" size) seem to be the likely "optimal" tires for those of us who live in the "all-season" geography of the US. These tires are:
Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+
Pirelli PZERO All-season Plus
They are "close" in price.
They are also "close" in performance
They have "high" (~500) UTQG durability ratings.
I have direct, personal experience with the Continentals and the Michelins.
I have had three sets of the DWS 06s and two sets of the Michelins. Currently I have the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires on a 2018 S4 and a 2018 SQ5. Both of these cars were special ordered with the 18" (S4) and 20" (SQ5) factory OEM wheels with the "summer tire" option ticked. The S4 came with Pirelli P7's and the SQ5 came with Continental (never heard of them and couldn't find them online) summer only tires. These OEM tires were pretty quiet and seemed to be good performers and pretty good at providing comfort on interstate highways.
At 11,000+ miles on the SQ5, we went to our Audi dealer and "negotiated" an installed price for new Extreme Contact DWS 06s that was $52 higher than ordering them from the TireRack and having the dealer install them. Since the total price was in the $1,000 neighborhood, we were seriously considering the dealer's offer (we've purchased 33 Audis from this dealer since 1977, so we have an investment in and benefit from "dealer good will" allowances, from time to time). We had already had three sets of the Continentals (one on my 2014 S4 and two on my wife's 2014 SQ5) and we have nothing but good words to say about the Continentals.
The internet is a great research tool and did "rank" the above-noted tires on several sites -- they were, always, in the top-five, often in the top-three. One tire, of the three, always came in at #1, however, and that tire was the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. Consumer Reports, too, liked these tires -- they seemed to me, however, to write favorably about the Pirelli in terms of its "quietness". And, the Pirelli did seem to be a better performer (other than in snow) than the Contis.
As long-time members of Costco, we happened to be at one of our three local stores and we decided to get quotes on the Michelin's (I had already worked up quotes for these tires from TireRack). As "luck" would have it the manager mentioned that there would be a $70 off plus $.01 installation (per tire) sale commencing on 11/17 and running through 11/27. We had Costco, then, write up a Michelin quote for our 2018 S4 and SQ5. I then went to my Audi dealer to get a quote for the installation of (any-brand) tires including mounting, balancing (road force) and an all-wheel alignment.
The all-wheel alignment was presented as a separate line item at my request.
The price difference was hundreds of dollars (favoring Costco).
I then looked up the difference between the Hunter (road force) balancing technology and the Michelin "certified" (their words, not mine) mounting and "radar/sonar" balancing technology. Costco -- a Michelin Certified retailer -- seems to be neutral with respect to which technology for balancing they prefer. I looked up as much data as I could find with google and then I talked to both Costco's tire dept manager and my service adviser at my Audi dealer. The outcome of the research and conversations led me to believe that the Costco "sonar" approach and the road force balancing approach generally are thought to both be acceptable. What seemed to be not recommended was simple "spin balancing". Road force balancing seems, intuitively, to possibly be able to get that last tiny bit of "perfection" out of a tire/wheel -- but to actually get benefit from it is generally noticeable at very high speeds. You can find proponents of both techniques/technologies. The point is, we could get 8 tires mounted and "sonar" balanced for $.08. This turns out to be a "labor" savings north of $200. In short, Costco had the lowest price for the base tire (lower than the delivered price from TireRack and lower, by far, than the tires from the Audi dealer) and the instant $70 rebate plus a $.04 per car installation charge meant Costco was the price winner and champion by a sizable margin.
Our thoughts: If the "sonar" balancing is insufficient (in feel and performance) we can still get the road force balancing at the dealer for the already quoted price -- the all-wheel alignment costs are unchanged regardless of the source of the tires.
We purchased four Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+'s for the SQ5 -- it took one business day for these tires to arrive at Costco. We had them installed, which included "sonar" balanced, nitrogen inflated, and lug-nut torqued efforts by the Michelin Certified technician (his certificate was proudly mounted on the wall to underscore Costco's commitment to the Michelin program). We were then instructed to drive 25 miles and come back to Costco for possible inflation (pressure) adjustment and lug-nut re-torquing.
We did this "test drive" and included a "farr-lick" of 95MPH on an open part of Interstate 71 north. We returned to Costco for the aforementioned tire-pressure adjustment, resetting of the TPMS and retorquing of the lug-nuts.
Believe it or not, we have already put more than 1,000 miles on the SQ5 with the new Michelin's -- AND, in the meantime, I ordered a set of four of these tires (245 x 40 x 18") for my 2018 S4. I have about 300 miles on them on this vehicle.
These Michelin Ultra-High Performance all-season tires are transformative. Every aspect of the driving experience on both "S" cars is improved. Both my wife and I believe we're now in "danger" of earning a speeding ticket because these tires make driving at 90MPH feel "about the same" as driving at 65 to 70MPH (both of our S's are Prestige, which, as you know, includes dual pane front window glass) the experience is so quiet.
Comfort and quiet are certainly important aspects -- for most people who buy these vehicles, I would assume -- but performance is also one of the primary reasons folks buy Audi S cars. If you are an S4 (or SQ5) owner or soon-to-be owner, either luxury or sportiness will be your #1 reason for buying and #2 will be what's left. In my case, I wanted sportiness and the luxury offered by a Premium car.
With the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires the driving experience exceeds the OEM experience noticeably, here's the difference:
Turn-in is immediate, there is virtually no vagueness -- what used to require "X" amount of steering wheel travel, now requires ".8X" (or less) to accomplish the same amount of vehicle response. By comparison the Continental DWS 06s were about the same as the OEM shoes in this respect.
These tires are the considerably quieter than the OEM's and -- with substantial experience with the DWS 06s -- quieter than the Contis, by far.
The Michelins allow higher cornering speeds than the P7s without protest and without the sensation that the tires were being pushed beyond their limits -- I dare say these Pilot Sports could probably "almost pass" as UHP summer-only tires they're so good. They exceed the performance capabilities of the DWS 06s with ease.
I have no experience with the Pireilli PZERO All-season Plus tires, I believe TireRack ranks them #5 in their list of Ultra-High Performance A/S tires. The Michelin's are -- at this time -- #1 and the Contis are either in the #2 or #3 spot. Other tests rate the PZEROs higher than the Contis -- but these tests usually don't consider snow traction, one of the Pirelli's lower ranked "talents".
Overall, driving with these Michelins has made me (and my wife) believers. As good as the DWS 06 tires are, the 3+ tires are simply better.
I will have to report, later, on the Costco "package" which includes lifetime free rotations and maintenance of the OEM experience and anything that might entail (at no additional charge).
The all-wheel alignment is something I recommend regardless of your tire choice and regardless of where you have the tires installed and regardless of your choice of balancing technology -- but it's your money, so do what you feel is affordable and appropriate.
Congratulations on your order -- you'll love the S4.
11-27-2017, 06:52 AM
#4
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks to both replies.. Knowing that I had my eye on the S4 and wouldn't be in the market until now, I joined ACNA earlier in the year and I'm past the 6 mos eligibility now.. I received the paperwork from ACNA for the 6%, so I plan on using that..
As far as the tires go -- my main concern was whether or not the tires could be damaged if the car was moved around a dealers lot, or for the trip home if I happened to take delivery on a chilly day.. With either the OEM A/S tires or the OEM summer tires, I know replacing the tires during the course of the lease is going to be necessary anyway.. So, I'll go with the OEM summer tires and 18's and likely only put 6-7K miles on them before switching them over to either the DWS A/S -- or possibly the Pilot Sport A/S 3+..
As far as the tires go -- my main concern was whether or not the tires could be damaged if the car was moved around a dealers lot, or for the trip home if I happened to take delivery on a chilly day.. With either the OEM A/S tires or the OEM summer tires, I know replacing the tires during the course of the lease is going to be necessary anyway.. So, I'll go with the OEM summer tires and 18's and likely only put 6-7K miles on them before switching them over to either the DWS A/S -- or possibly the Pilot Sport A/S 3+..
11-27-2017, 07:16 AM
#5
Great approach -- you can't go wrong with either tire, despite my "experience" with these two tires. I am not suggesting the Contis are not "top tier" choices. If you have the ability to "test drive" a car equipped with both tires (well, two cars, of course), I would urge you to do so. One year ago I would have said "Continentals" because of the price premium the Michelin's carry (if purchased outside of the Costco eco-system). Now, with new information, I can without hesitation recommend both tires -- but give the edge to the 3+s.
Again, great choice, good plan and congrats.
Again, great choice, good plan and congrats.
12-10-2017, 12:26 PM
#6
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
I was also curious if anyone here has received a recent build with the 18" summer tires -- if so, what came on the car? I see TireRack is showing the Bridgestone Potenza S001 as the OE tire -- is that accurate?
Trending Topics
12-12-2017, 05:31 AM
#9
I took delivery of my 2018 S4 with 18" summer tires in April of 2017: It was equipped with Pirelli Cinturato P7 ultra-high-performance summer tires. They have a very low treadwear number of 240. My experience is that you would be lucky to get 14,000 miles out of them. I got rid of mine south of 9K miles -- went with the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. The OEM tires delivered very good performance -- they are however NOT fond of temps below 40F.
12-12-2017, 06:06 AM
#10
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
I took delivery of my 2018 S4 with 18" summer tires in April of 2017: It was equipped with Pirelli Cinturato P7 ultra-high-performance summer tires. They have a very low treadwear number of 240. My experience is that you would be lucky to get 14,000 miles out of them. I got rid of mine south of 9K miles -- went with the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. The OEM tires delivered very good performance -- they are however NOT fond of temps below 40F.