front suspension clunk (long story)
07-20-2003, 03:19 PM
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front suspension clunk (long story)
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1281718.phtml">It started</a> with me examining my front suspension for things I thought might be making the clunking.
The advice and help I received was great (thanks guys, especially Don Istook, who offered me cut-rate takeoff control arms).
I ended up taking the car to the dealer to try and get a "good will" fix. After telling the service manager what I had found (two bad control arm ball joints and a bad tie-rod end ball joint), and asking him to understand that the damage couldn't possibly have developed in 1100 miles (my out-of-warranty time), he managed to wrangle (who knows, Audi probably rolled right over) a 75/25 (Audi/Me) split of the repair costs. Sounds pretty good, right?
I was fine with it, until the estimate came back. The technician (after a test drive and examination) decided that <b><i>all</i></b> of my front suspension arms needed replacing. My end: <b><i>$517.44!!</i></b>.
I bit the bullet. Although I felt a little weird about replacing so much more than I had found bad, I figured that if the lifetimes of the rest of the ball joints were comparable, they'd probably need replacing soon enough, and I probably wouldn't be able to get Audi to pay 75%.
The parts were on back-order, so I drove a bottom-of-the-line Jetta for the 2 1/2 weeks it took to get the parts in, and the car fixed.
In the first few days after I got the car back, I was sure I was hearing the same (but maybe less frequent) clunking from the front end. When I got some time, I put the car on ramps and crawled underneath the front end to see what I could see. Everywhere I looked underneath up front were shiny new control arms. Sweet! So my clunking was even more baffling. That was, until, I looked at the tie-rods ends. They had not been replaced! The technician had failed:
1) to read and heed the original repair order, which <b><i>specifically</i></b> called for replacing the tie-rod end on the passenger side.
2) to actually pay attention on his supposed "test drive", after which he pronounced the car's "...clunking gone..." (I expect he didn't even test drive the car before the repairs, rendering him incapable of making any judgement about what change had been effected).
I told the service manager <b><i>exactly</i></b> what I wanted replaced. My diagnosis was disregarded and my request for repair was <b><i>ignored</i></b>. Had there been no claim of a test drive and no diagnosis notes, I would have been more likely to excuse this kind of oversight. But to presume to know better and still be wrong is a deadly sin (pride).
I called the service manager and registered my extreme annoyance at the second-guessing. With not undue obsequiousness, he promised to finish the repair with the utmost urgency, and that he'd honor the same 72/25 (Audi/Me) deal (on parts, he agreed to eat the labor and re-alignment, as it was his bad). My end: $98.94.
I had to wait yet another week and a half for the parts (this time I kept my car while I waited for the parts).
Once the parts were in, the repair was effected in a few hours. Here are some shots of my new front end bits:
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_uppers_and_tie_rod.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_lowers.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_lowers_closeup.jpg">
Please, no lecture on my getting underneath a car on the OEM jack; it was a one-off and I'm an adult.
This isn't the end of the story, though.
After another few days of driving the car around, I noticed the clunking was still present. In fact, it had gotten worse! This makes the assertion on the <b><i>second</i></b> repair order that "test drove no noise present" a bit ridiculous.
I didn't make another service appointment right away. Instead, over a week and a half or so, I drove around with the AC and radio off, playing with the steering wheel and driving gently over bumps at various angles. I tried pulling on the wheels, bouncing on the front corners of the car, crawling around the front suspension looking for something loose or broken. I was trying to pinpoint the problem so I could tell the dealer once and for all what to fix (since I'd already spent over $600 on ineffective repairs). I was starting to suspect my steering rack, or an untorqued subframe bolt.
The third or so time I was under the car, peering in bafflement at a suspension that <i>looked</i> good but felt and sounded like my '74 Dodge Dart, I found <b><i>this</i></b> staring me in the face:
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/what_is_wrong_with_this_picture.jpg">
I'm ashamed to say that I looked at this part five or six times without noticing that the lock nut wasn't tightened (it was, in fact, tightened down on the wrong end!) This tie-rod end was so loosely fastened that wiggling the steering wheel produced <b><i>visible</i></b> play between the rack and the tie-rod end. Both sides were like this, by the way, which makes the incompetent installation border on negligence.
I've just discovered, fixed, and documented the issue (the car's now clunk free again!), now I need to approach the dealer about it. What do you guys think I should ask for?
By the way, the work was performed at Miramar Audi in San Diego. Once I've extracted satisfaction from them, I expect it'll be difficult for me to return there for service in clear conscience. Caveat Emptor.
-Rob
The advice and help I received was great (thanks guys, especially Don Istook, who offered me cut-rate takeoff control arms).
I ended up taking the car to the dealer to try and get a "good will" fix. After telling the service manager what I had found (two bad control arm ball joints and a bad tie-rod end ball joint), and asking him to understand that the damage couldn't possibly have developed in 1100 miles (my out-of-warranty time), he managed to wrangle (who knows, Audi probably rolled right over) a 75/25 (Audi/Me) split of the repair costs. Sounds pretty good, right?
I was fine with it, until the estimate came back. The technician (after a test drive and examination) decided that <b><i>all</i></b> of my front suspension arms needed replacing. My end: <b><i>$517.44!!</i></b>.
I bit the bullet. Although I felt a little weird about replacing so much more than I had found bad, I figured that if the lifetimes of the rest of the ball joints were comparable, they'd probably need replacing soon enough, and I probably wouldn't be able to get Audi to pay 75%.
The parts were on back-order, so I drove a bottom-of-the-line Jetta for the 2 1/2 weeks it took to get the parts in, and the car fixed.
In the first few days after I got the car back, I was sure I was hearing the same (but maybe less frequent) clunking from the front end. When I got some time, I put the car on ramps and crawled underneath the front end to see what I could see. Everywhere I looked underneath up front were shiny new control arms. Sweet! So my clunking was even more baffling. That was, until, I looked at the tie-rods ends. They had not been replaced! The technician had failed:
1) to read and heed the original repair order, which <b><i>specifically</i></b> called for replacing the tie-rod end on the passenger side.
2) to actually pay attention on his supposed "test drive", after which he pronounced the car's "...clunking gone..." (I expect he didn't even test drive the car before the repairs, rendering him incapable of making any judgement about what change had been effected).
I told the service manager <b><i>exactly</i></b> what I wanted replaced. My diagnosis was disregarded and my request for repair was <b><i>ignored</i></b>. Had there been no claim of a test drive and no diagnosis notes, I would have been more likely to excuse this kind of oversight. But to presume to know better and still be wrong is a deadly sin (pride).
I called the service manager and registered my extreme annoyance at the second-guessing. With not undue obsequiousness, he promised to finish the repair with the utmost urgency, and that he'd honor the same 72/25 (Audi/Me) deal (on parts, he agreed to eat the labor and re-alignment, as it was his bad). My end: $98.94.
I had to wait yet another week and a half for the parts (this time I kept my car while I waited for the parts).
Once the parts were in, the repair was effected in a few hours. Here are some shots of my new front end bits:
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_uppers_and_tie_rod.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_lowers.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/new_lowers_closeup.jpg">
Please, no lecture on my getting underneath a car on the OEM jack; it was a one-off and I'm an adult.
This isn't the end of the story, though.
After another few days of driving the car around, I noticed the clunking was still present. In fact, it had gotten worse! This makes the assertion on the <b><i>second</i></b> repair order that "test drove no noise present" a bit ridiculous.
I didn't make another service appointment right away. Instead, over a week and a half or so, I drove around with the AC and radio off, playing with the steering wheel and driving gently over bumps at various angles. I tried pulling on the wheels, bouncing on the front corners of the car, crawling around the front suspension looking for something loose or broken. I was trying to pinpoint the problem so I could tell the dealer once and for all what to fix (since I'd already spent over $600 on ineffective repairs). I was starting to suspect my steering rack, or an untorqued subframe bolt.
The third or so time I was under the car, peering in bafflement at a suspension that <i>looked</i> good but felt and sounded like my '74 Dodge Dart, I found <b><i>this</i></b> staring me in the face:
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/2123/what_is_wrong_with_this_picture.jpg">
I'm ashamed to say that I looked at this part five or six times without noticing that the lock nut wasn't tightened (it was, in fact, tightened down on the wrong end!) This tie-rod end was so loosely fastened that wiggling the steering wheel produced <b><i>visible</i></b> play between the rack and the tie-rod end. Both sides were like this, by the way, which makes the incompetent installation border on negligence.
I've just discovered, fixed, and documented the issue (the car's now clunk free again!), now I need to approach the dealer about it. What do you guys think I should ask for?
By the way, the work was performed at Miramar Audi in San Diego. Once I've extracted satisfaction from them, I expect it'll be difficult for me to return there for service in clear conscience. Caveat Emptor.
-Rob
07-20-2003, 04:08 PM
#5
I would expect that originally after the tie rods were...
installed, the jam nuts probably were against the inner portion of the tie rod are, hence you did not hear any noise. If they weren't "snugged" or torqued, they gradually backed off....which will definitely create looseness....so on an intial terst drive, all might have been well. One other thing that should be checked, for it will create the same noise....the tightness of the three 8mm 12 point bolts that hold the steering rack down. Two of them are reached from the engine compartment and one from underneath. They will create a definite "clunk" from the front end when they are loose.
We have seen these loose several times.
Good luck....Don
We have seen these loose several times.
Good luck....Don
07-20-2003, 04:22 PM
#7
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I wish I could give the tech credit...
...for moving the jam nuts to the inside but forgetting to snug them, but I can't. The jam nuts were actually torqued (I'd say at about 10ft-lbs) to the outside!
I actually found the 12-point rack bolts (in the course of looking for the clunk) and decided they were not the cause. Of course, I'm more sure now that I've actually fixed the clunk by properly tightening the jam nuts.
Thanks again for the help, advice.
-Rob
I actually found the 12-point rack bolts (in the course of looking for the clunk) and decided they were not the cause. Of course, I'm more sure now that I've actually fixed the clunk by properly tightening the jam nuts.
Thanks again for the help, advice.
-Rob
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07-20-2003, 05:36 PM
#9
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My service advisor quoted something like $600 for parts and labor. The service technician riding
with me couldn't understand why AUDI control arms and tie rods are as sh!tty as they are.
