What would *really* make me skip the next S4
03-29-2002, 03:31 PM
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What would *really* make me skip the next S4
All this talk about horsepower makes me think of people comparing fine beers based solely on alcohol content.
Three things will kill the next S4 for me:
- If there's no manual transmission available, no way. And fancy paddles won't change my mind.
- If there's no Avant version, forget it. The utility of the back hatch combined with performance is the key attraction of the S4 to me.
- If it's too expensive -- beyond $50K -- no way. Audi is sending plenty your way if you're into spending a$$loads of money; leave the S4 for the rest of us.
Okay, a fourth killer:
- No AWD. But that would never happen, right?
One thing I'm still not sure about:
- The NA V8. It just doesn't appeal to me in a technological sense as much as a biturbo V6.
Hey, I'd buy a 2002 S4 Avant right now if I could find a new one configured the way I want it. So I figure if the next S4 isn't any worse or terribly more expensive than the current one, I'll buy it.
Three things will kill the next S4 for me:
- If there's no manual transmission available, no way. And fancy paddles won't change my mind.
- If there's no Avant version, forget it. The utility of the back hatch combined with performance is the key attraction of the S4 to me.
- If it's too expensive -- beyond $50K -- no way. Audi is sending plenty your way if you're into spending a$$loads of money; leave the S4 for the rest of us.
Okay, a fourth killer:
- No AWD. But that would never happen, right?
One thing I'm still not sure about:
- The NA V8. It just doesn't appeal to me in a technological sense as much as a biturbo V6.
Hey, I'd buy a 2002 S4 Avant right now if I could find a new one configured the way I want it. So I figure if the next S4 isn't any worse or terribly more expensive than the current one, I'll buy it.
03-29-2002, 03:39 PM
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there are fancy paddles, and there are fancy paddles
IMO Tiptronic/Sportshift/whatever is *not* a substitute for a stick; it is an enhancement to an automatic.
SMG, however, a la BMW or Ferrari or Maserati or whomever, I would definitely accept.
SMG, however, a la BMW or Ferrari or Maserati or whomever, I would definitely accept.
03-29-2002, 04:06 PM
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SMG or Multitronic are fine options for those inclined...
...but if there's no push-a-real-clutch-pedal-with-your-own-foot manual available, no thanks for me. I really like driving a "manual-manual" -- it keeps me more in touch with the act of driving.
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03-29-2002, 06:01 PM
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what not sold on v8, because of technology ... turbo v6 DOES ""NOT"" IMPLY better than na v8
Yoh, the problem with this whole general analysis of a v6tt and na v8 is that many are making assumptions based on the conotations of v6 turbo an V8. The point of a turbo is to produce more power than an equivalent NA version of the same engine, for cheap, and not take up much more engine space. However, if the v6tt doesn't make more power than the v8 who cares. Also, the v8 is in fact lighter, then the v6tt. The point is you should examine the engines in question before making decisions about them, don't go on perception.
Let's look @ pro's for and cons for the NA v8 4.2L from cosworth in question
Pro's for 4.2L NA V8 as heard in rumor mill
THE PRO's FOR the V8 (rumored)
** 360HP stock, right out of box, it's powerful
** Aluminum Block, it is lighter than the v6tt
** Sounds Better than a v6 period. Listen to a quality v8, it's beautiful. People, like after markets exhaust, I hate them, I like engines that sound good by nature. The natural sound of a good sounding engine, always, sounds better than after market exhuasts. Why, because, after market exhausts, well, they sound AFTERMARKET- the most ludicrous form of this being, damn hondas.
** No Turbo Failure to worry about, the v6tt turbo record is dismal
** Instantaneous Power
** It's a proven engine, currently used in the S6, and S8, all road, and A6 4.2, and turboed version used RS6
** The tuning potential is greater for the v8 than the v6tt, although, the v6tt can add power cheaply for a few books, any mod to get it power above the v8 will be expensive, the same amount of money applied to v8 would add more power
** Conceivably, super chargers for this engine are already in the works, the rumor mill, has them @ producing 500HP, pricing comparable to current superchargers
** There is no replacement for displacement, and the v8 has plenty of displacement.
THE CON's for the V8
-- It may or may not be more expensive than v6tt, being it is an aluminum block, one would guess it might be more expensive
-- Can't add power cheap initially, but there really isn't a need, if the v8 comes with alot of power such as 360HP, in addition more expensive mods done to v8 will give bigger power gains than equivalent priced mods done to the v6tt
-- No turbos, but hey, you may be able to add them, and definitely a supercharger if you can't fit turbos into the power plant. Plus, who cares about turbos, it's about producing power! How, you produce it, is pretty irrelavent.
The PRO's for the 2.9tt v6 (rumored)
** 300HP, but not as much power out of box
** Can add power, with a chip, fairly easily, might get you a 60HP power gain, putting it on par with v8 4.2L, but any real substantial power gains you want to do after that, would be expensive.
** The engine might be cheaper than the v8 4.2?
** Conceivably FI (ie turbo's) would work better in higher climates, however, turbos become wholey inefficient when temperatures get high with in the engine and outside, because, the hotter a gas, the less dense it is.
-- The v6tt is heavier, then the v8, considering it's mostly iron block save cam heads, and a few other items.
-- Turbo Lag.
-- Not as powerful out of box as V8.
-- Once we start getting into expensive mods, say $3000 dollar engine mods, the V8 would take the money much farther than the v6tt. Say for instance a $3000 supercharger for the v8 should give you more power, than doing $3000 add of K04 turbos, plus exhaust to the v6tt.
-- The v6tt doesn't sound as good as the 4.2L v8
-- Turbo reliability is always a question, a turboed engine has more moving parts, therefore more chance of engine failure, and well we know the blown turbo syndrome
-- Turbo becomes inefficient in hot climates
-- The 2.9tt does not have as much potential as the v8, based on pure displacement potential, alone
Look, which engine would you like better the NA v8 400HP found in the M5 or the 250 v6tt in the S4? Ok, add chip to s4 that's 315, add $200 blower to M5 that's 435HP. In any event the M5 is clearly a faster car, hands down.
0-60 4.6-4.9 for the m5 compared to 5.3-5.6 for S4, I don't have 1/4 times right off the top, i'll look them up after the post. My point is that v6tt doesn't imply better than NA v8, nor does v8 imply better than v6tt, you would really have to consider both engines in question, and make the decision not just make assumptions. Such as people assuming the v8 is heavier than the v6tt, when in fact, the v8 is actually lighter. In short, I think the v8 4.2 if what we have heard about it is to be used in the S4 it would be a great. Judging by pro's and con's it's simply a better move. It's all about producing power, turbo doesn't mean I have more power, it means I have more power than the NA version of the same engine, if we compared an NA version of the v6tt with the turboed v6, the turoboed V6 should have more power than it's NA counterpart. It doesn't mean it will have more power than a i4 or I6 or NA v8, NA v6, or ... whatever, of any other kind of engine. Your only gauranteed to have more power than a NA version of the same engine, that's it. My point is you must examine, two engines, carefully before, making decisions on which is better, don't go on, perception, or assumptions.
Let's look @ pro's for and cons for the NA v8 4.2L from cosworth in question
Pro's for 4.2L NA V8 as heard in rumor mill
THE PRO's FOR the V8 (rumored)
** 360HP stock, right out of box, it's powerful
** Aluminum Block, it is lighter than the v6tt
** Sounds Better than a v6 period. Listen to a quality v8, it's beautiful. People, like after markets exhaust, I hate them, I like engines that sound good by nature. The natural sound of a good sounding engine, always, sounds better than after market exhuasts. Why, because, after market exhausts, well, they sound AFTERMARKET- the most ludicrous form of this being, damn hondas.
** No Turbo Failure to worry about, the v6tt turbo record is dismal
** Instantaneous Power
** It's a proven engine, currently used in the S6, and S8, all road, and A6 4.2, and turboed version used RS6
** The tuning potential is greater for the v8 than the v6tt, although, the v6tt can add power cheaply for a few books, any mod to get it power above the v8 will be expensive, the same amount of money applied to v8 would add more power
** Conceivably, super chargers for this engine are already in the works, the rumor mill, has them @ producing 500HP, pricing comparable to current superchargers
** There is no replacement for displacement, and the v8 has plenty of displacement.
THE CON's for the V8
-- It may or may not be more expensive than v6tt, being it is an aluminum block, one would guess it might be more expensive
-- Can't add power cheap initially, but there really isn't a need, if the v8 comes with alot of power such as 360HP, in addition more expensive mods done to v8 will give bigger power gains than equivalent priced mods done to the v6tt
-- No turbos, but hey, you may be able to add them, and definitely a supercharger if you can't fit turbos into the power plant. Plus, who cares about turbos, it's about producing power! How, you produce it, is pretty irrelavent.
The PRO's for the 2.9tt v6 (rumored)
** 300HP, but not as much power out of box
** Can add power, with a chip, fairly easily, might get you a 60HP power gain, putting it on par with v8 4.2L, but any real substantial power gains you want to do after that, would be expensive.
** The engine might be cheaper than the v8 4.2?
** Conceivably FI (ie turbo's) would work better in higher climates, however, turbos become wholey inefficient when temperatures get high with in the engine and outside, because, the hotter a gas, the less dense it is.
-- The v6tt is heavier, then the v8, considering it's mostly iron block save cam heads, and a few other items.
-- Turbo Lag.
-- Not as powerful out of box as V8.
-- Once we start getting into expensive mods, say $3000 dollar engine mods, the V8 would take the money much farther than the v6tt. Say for instance a $3000 supercharger for the v8 should give you more power, than doing $3000 add of K04 turbos, plus exhaust to the v6tt.
-- The v6tt doesn't sound as good as the 4.2L v8
-- Turbo reliability is always a question, a turboed engine has more moving parts, therefore more chance of engine failure, and well we know the blown turbo syndrome
-- Turbo becomes inefficient in hot climates
-- The 2.9tt does not have as much potential as the v8, based on pure displacement potential, alone
Look, which engine would you like better the NA v8 400HP found in the M5 or the 250 v6tt in the S4? Ok, add chip to s4 that's 315, add $200 blower to M5 that's 435HP. In any event the M5 is clearly a faster car, hands down.
0-60 4.6-4.9 for the m5 compared to 5.3-5.6 for S4, I don't have 1/4 times right off the top, i'll look them up after the post. My point is that v6tt doesn't imply better than NA v8, nor does v8 imply better than v6tt, you would really have to consider both engines in question, and make the decision not just make assumptions. Such as people assuming the v8 is heavier than the v6tt, when in fact, the v8 is actually lighter. In short, I think the v8 4.2 if what we have heard about it is to be used in the S4 it would be a great. Judging by pro's and con's it's simply a better move. It's all about producing power, turbo doesn't mean I have more power, it means I have more power than the NA version of the same engine, if we compared an NA version of the v6tt with the turboed v6, the turoboed V6 should have more power than it's NA counterpart. It doesn't mean it will have more power than a i4 or I6 or NA v8, NA v6, or ... whatever, of any other kind of engine. Your only gauranteed to have more power than a NA version of the same engine, that's it. My point is you must examine, two engines, carefully before, making decisions on which is better, don't go on, perception, or assumptions.
03-29-2002, 06:44 PM
#10
I'd actually prefer a more reliable Turbo 6 (more)
One of the main reasons I like the S4 so much is because of the turbos, and the minimalized power losses at altitude. I'm in the mountains a lot, so this is actually one of my main reasons to pick an S4 over a 2.8, even if they were both the same power rating.