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I’m an avid car lover and have been blessed to have the opportunity to own several different vehicles from muscle to exotics. My first Audi branded vehicle was the RS7. I own 15+ vehicles, including a 2018 720S and 2018 911 TTS. I am averaging one purchase every 4-6 months. I’m not trying to boast, just merely attempting to communicate my automobile infatuation. My intentions for this article are to be informational, factual and non-emotional. In no way do I want to “blast” any outfit.
I’ve had the APR stage 1 tune installed for over 32k miles with zero issues. Early one morning, I was driving to office and motor sputtered with CEL appearing. I read the code thru the APR ap and it stated misfire in cylinder 1. I had the tune removed and brought into dealer. Computer still read that ECU was previously tuned and car was flagged as “TD1”. I authorized full evaluation at my expense and the findings were, “turbo impellers damaged, evidence of dirt in intake system, cylinder 1 not holding compression, excessive metal particles in oil.” Dealer denied warranty and quotes approximately $50k for new engine block and turbos. See pics below.
Action items:
-I called Goodspeed (APR dealer that installed) and they refused to assist, telling me to call APR.
-I contacted APR numerous times with very little assistance. They claimed they didn’t feel the tune could have caused this damage and that something foreign may have entered the turbos, possibly a loose item that was left during last service at dealer. They would not provide anything in writing and stopped returning calls.
-I called AWE to see if there was any part of intake that could have become loose and suck into turbos and they were very little help. They did mention there was a newer version that I could “upgrade” to.
-I contacted Audi corporate requesting any sort of “good will” help and they refused.
-I met with Audi Chandler and they reduced quote by about 10% as a good faith gesture and I proceeded with repair.
The unknown:
-Did the APR tune directly cause engine failure?
-Did OEM turbo fail as a manufacture defect and warranty was denied based off tune?
-Was there a loose part left within intake after last dealer service?
The bottom line and lesson learned:
When you alter the ECU on these cars, you are opening Pandora’s box for any unknown issues to appear. I will never truly know what root cause of failure was, but I’m certain if car wasn’t tuned, engine failure wouldn’t have occurred, or it would have been covered under warranty.
P.S. I replaced the RS7 with 2019 MB E63S and couldn’t be happier. I’ll save that for the MB forum. . .
The turbo(s) clearly ingested some sort of foreign object(s). You can't bork the turbo impeller vanes like that with software. The question is...where did that foreign object come from? (It is probably lodged somewhere in one or both of the catalytic converters)
Secondly...why on earth would anyone pay 40-50k for a new engine on that car? That is insane and frankly stupid. There are numerous other paths you could have taken at significantly lower cost. So I'm sympathetic about the problem, curious about the cause, and rolling my eyes about the solution you chose. Personally, I'd have found a wrecked S8 or RS7, swapped motors, and called it a day. When you modify these cars, you have to assume that Audi is going to wash their hands of warranty issues. You break it, you "own" it. They design the drivetrain for a specific duty cycle and by modding it, you've likely exceeded those parameters. So the assumption is that if you want to mod a "super car" you should put away some "oops" money in case you break it.
Just trying to call 'em like I see 'em and you seem to be taking it in stride while somewhat slamming APR/AWE/dealer. I guess I'd be annoyed too if I shat out that kind of money because of what appears to be someone's carelessness.
Thanks for the feedback Ritz.
Regarding the turbos, dealer advised that tune could have spun the impellers faster than they were designed and therefore could have become thrown out of balance and hit casing at that point.
I agree with your engine replacement evaluation. I did pursue a preowned motor off a wrecked rs7 and install from a legit performance shop here. After all the dust settled, I would have been saving approx. $8k. This was wasn't worth the chance that something else could go wrong or preowned motor was not good. Figured if I went with dealer, I would have the most assurance that it was properly replaced with full documentation along with the best chance of recourse/good will help from Audi corporate and/or Penske.
And again, agree that if you modify you should have some side funds just in case.
Cheers!
Last edited by Jvise; 02-20-2019 at 11:44 AM.
Reason: typo
Thais for the feedback Ritz.
Regarding the turbos, dealer advised that tune could have spun the impellers faster than they were designed and therefore could have become thrown out of balance and hit casing at that point.
That would have resulted in the outer edges being worn/bent/deformed. The damage is on the leading edge of the impellers. That is the result of being struck by a foreign object, not contact with the housing. It also doesn't make sense. A bearing failure in the turbo could cause contact with the housing, but the likelihood of that happening to BOTH turbos simultaneously is incredibly unlikely as well as the damage not being consistent with that kind of contact. Assuming you had quality air filtration, it sure looks like maybe some casting or machining burr or something along those lines was dislodged somewhere between the filters and the turbos and then ingested by the turbos (damaging them) which then sent the object(s) and debris from the impellers into the intake charge where it borked either the piston ring or one or more valve seals in the cylinder that lost compression. That motor probably could have been rebuilt and saved by a competent shop or an appropriate RS7/S8 engine from a wrecked car could have been substituted in. Anyway, water under the bridge and again, I'm sorry you had to go through that. What a nightmare.
That would have resulted in the outer edges being worn/bent/deformed. The damage is on the leading edge of the impellers. That is the result of being struck by a foreign object, not contact with the housing. It also doesn't make sense. A bearing failure in the turbo could cause contact with the housing, but the likelihood of that happening to BOTH turbos simultaneously is incredibly unlikely as well as the damage not being consistent with that kind of contact. Assuming you had quality air filtration, it sure looks like maybe some casting or machining burr or something along those lines was dislodged somewhere between the filters and the turbos and then ingested by the turbos (damaging them) which then sent the object(s) and debris from the impellers into the intake charge where it borked either the piston ring or one or more valve seals in the cylinder that lost compression. That motor probably could have been rebuilt and saved by a competent shop or an appropriate RS7/S8 engine from a wrecked car could have been substituted in. Anyway, water under the bridge and again, I'm sorry you had to go through that. What a nightmare.
Best,
Appreciate your thoughts. I think you are spot on with something foreign entering turbo. Problem was proving that while also having a tune. Might have been able to save a few $ with rebuild, but was really hoping Audi would step up and help out, especially if I was using their mechanics and new parts. Like you had mentioned, if you are considering tuning these cars, you should also have funds set aside for absolute worse case scenario. For me, I'm sticking to all stock ecu's on 720S (roll race monster), 911TTS (launch control king) and E63S (family cruiser).
Like you had mentioned, if you are considering tuning these cars, you should also have funds set aside for absolute worse case scenario. For me, I'm sticking to all stock ecu's on 720S (roll race monster), 911TTS (launch control king) and E63S (family cruiser).
Seriously. I see guys on here and other forums who can scrape together the cash to buy a needy used German or Italian sports/super car without even the pretense of considering the running cost or consequences of their actions (see the thread with the S7 owner who thought he couldn't afford his insurance payment and then had some jackass get into his car and crash it). They live paycheck to paycheck and are always talking about "mods" and "bling." You seem like someone who's been around the block, knows what they are getting into, and can deal with the financial hit if something goes <poof>. Those other guys will be eating friskies three times a day when they retire and have little to show for their years of toil. It's sad. I've got an office full of millennials who don't think past next month's rent check, even though they earn a decent 6 figure salary.
Nice rides! Fortunately, my wife is far more frugal than I am and is outright tickled to have a new Kia Sorento every couple of years for baby hauling. The woman is a saint!
yes the millennial mentality continually baffles me, but something we are going to have to accept into our work environments. you have a good wife! keep her happy my friend.
02-19-2019, 12:40 PM
Audi RS7 APR Tune Engine & Turbo Failure
