And then there's this...
 

make Cadillac great again?
 

Apparently even American cars built in Canada may be a national security threat. Steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Mexico and the E.U. go into effect at midnight.

That will never happen

"Citing several unnamed U.S. and European diplomats.."

I put very little credence into unnamed sources. President Trump said he was going to bring steel production back to the US. Nobody should be surprised. Well, maybe they are surprised a politician is doing what they said they would do.

Edit: After doing a bit more reading, I found this on CNN Money

"Currently, vehicles shipped from Europe to the US face a low 2.5% tariff. Meanwhile, cars built in America face a 10% tariff when they're shipped to the European Union."

Why is the US paying 4 times as much to get US cars into Europe?

All posturing

Ugh. :mad:

Replace the word "tariff" with the word "tax", because that's what it really is and the consumer is the one who pays for it.

That's one thing I have enjoyed on this forum. Virtually no political talk. I come here to for ideas, information, and to see what others have done with their cars - which is part of the escape from the 24/7 always opinionated (from either side) 'news'.

Perfectly said!

tax, and potentially worse...
 

I pulled out of equities in March, convinced that Trump's ego and base made a trade war inevitable.

Because US isn't paying, European citizens are paying. Maybe learn how tariffs work?

Also, every car (regardless of origin) is more expensive in europe due to multiple factors.

I know exactly how tariffs work, thank-you very much. I also know it is unfair to charge one country 4 times more than they charge you. The solution is simple, and good for European consumers: Lower the tariffs on US cars.

Respectfully, the whole "we don't talk politics at the dinner table" mentality is a huge contributor to why the current US administration was elected (which depending on where you stand, is either a good thing or a bad thing). For those of us who view it as a bad thing that we want to change, even if only for the betterment of the Audi ownership experience, we need to talk about it and encourage people to vote in November. For those of us who (benefit of the doubt here) support this tariffs move and/or other current political actions or rhetoric, we need to talk about that too and also vote in November.

I will identify as against the tariffs because I believe they will, if allowed to continue long enough, directly affect the pricing, availability, and/or quality (when manufacturers decide to absorb the cost of tariffs into their build quality by offering a more cheaply made or worse-optioned version of their cars for the US market, but at the existing price point) without a corresponding upside such as improving our national security posture or whatever else. I believe this will cause only harm to car enthusiasts.

I agree that Audiworld is generally not a place to discuss politics, but cars are an enormous global industry which political decisions directly affect and we have to be willing to discuss them when applicable. It is no less taboo than talking about gas jumping to $6/gallon because of a war, which would certainly affect our 20mpg premium-gulpers, or certain EU regulations forcing the dawn of electric vehicles, or CAGR laws which force the industry to change the driving dynamics of our S cars and nerf the "D" driving mode in the interest of greener fuel economy average.

If we dislike these things, we need to recruit passive readers and "we don't talk about that's" to stand for our ideas, spread them, and represent them where it matters: at the polls.

What do you mean good for European consumers??? European consumers have to pay more for the american car because of the tariffs, the american car company doesn't eat the tariff cost, they pay it and it gets added to the price of the car.

Conversely, we pay less markup for our european cars because our tariff is lower.

You say you know how tariffs work but you clearly do not.

example: the focus RS is 13% higher starting MSRP in France than the US - apparently this car is made in europe, fancy that.
I dont even think ford sells american made cars in europe... all I can find is european and canadian manufactured vehicles.

watch it ArvX147!
 

Of course, you're quite right that the EU is a high tax environment, and the tariffs on cars are just another consumption tax. But the Trump administration is selling 17th century mercantilist snake oil as economic theory. Hence any attempt to discuss auto economics here is characterized as a discussion of politics. Forget about the inconvenient facts, such as BMW is the largest exporter of cars from the U.S..

I'm not sure lower tariffs in Europe would really do much to improve car sales over there. The "American" cars that we normally think about are about as far away from what the European consumer wants as you can get. Big, Ugly and Thirsty. Ok - the ugly part is a bit subjective, but it's clear that US car companies are going with a retro style that doesn't exactly emphasize sleek, elegant or efficient design. Heck - Ford is practically abandoning the sedan market altogether. The F-150 is a great truck (I have one) but I could not imagine trying to drive one through the typical city streets of Europe.

As for the cars that Europeans DO want to purchase, like the Fiesta/Focus, they are already made in Europe so tariffs don't apply and lowering the tariff won't help the consumer or the US auto worker.

@ NoMoreBMWs & njspeedfreak -- You both raise excellent points in your respective posts. I especially agree with njspeedfreak and his views on American Cars in Europe -- The only "American Cars" I saw there were "muscle" cars like Corvettes and high-end Mustangs. I cannot ever recall seeing a Chrysler or Chevrolet on a road in Europe.NoMoreBMWs - IMO you have nailed what the current administration is attempting perfectly - Erect tariffs as a Political act that will result in everyone suffering. Snake Oil is a polite way of saying it! My term would be Pure BS.

I wonder what percentage of American cars (by American companies, not just manufactured here) can currently be sold in the E.U. due to the stricter fuel economy standards. Combine that with the cost of gasoline there, and I don't think I'd even consider most American cars if I lived on the other side of the pond.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.aud...1429d8d507.jpg

Go back and re-read. It should be obvious Europeans are paying more because the EU charges higher tariffs.

President Trump is a business person. I'm sure his goal is to have equal tariffs. The EU can either lower their tariffs on US cars or the US will raise tariffs on EU cars. It really is that simple.

no CtheWOrld, it isn't that simple...
 

American cars that are of some interest in Europe, such as the Ford Mustang, are still very affordable compared to BMWs and Audis: https://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/08/...ricing-report/ . It isn't at all clear that lowering EU tariffs would result in a significant increase in demand.

That doesn't make it any less fair for the EU to charge us more than we charge them. President Trump says he is in favor or free and equal trade. We need to work on the equal part.

With all due respect, nobody is forcing you to read the thread ;)

I'm all in favour of lowering tariffs...
 

But of course Trump is raising tariffs, and thumbing his nose at the multilateral deals and institutions that have been proven to lower tariffs. The U.S. chamber of commerce estimates that the steel tariffs alone will put 2.6 million jobs at risk.

The Chamber of Commerce is a front for globalists that want open borders and unlimited guest workers. They are anti-American. I believe they said the economy was going to tank if President Trump was elected.

Whomever made those deals did not have America's best interests in mind. This President does. He ran, and won, on the America First platform.

Oh boy. Once 45's name came up in this thread in an earlier post, I knew this had the potential to go sideways really fast. I don't know how a discussion of economics (specifically around cars) can be dissected from politics.

I'll just sit here and watch now ... :)
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.aud...bb179fc179.jpg

But isn't spending $42k+ on a car that is 100% designed and built in Germany, by German workers, and then exported to a dealership in America (which is itself a franchise of a German company), by definition also "globalist" and "anti-American?" Doesn't supporting "America First" by that same logic mean you should be dumping your money into a Cadillac? I see from your post history that you even came over from BMW, who at least has some manufacturing operations in the United States.

I'm not saying your views are automatically invalid because of this, but it is difficult to see how someone who made the second largest purchase of his life* on the most non-American product possible can go around denouncing globalism and calling the Chamber of Commerce a "front," implying it serves some sort of derogatory, illegitimate purpose.

Fact is, you literally drove globalism to work today and the CoC enabled you to do it. (Or maybe if your A5 has DAP, globalism drove you :p ). Talk about confusing.

*an assumption, based on the commonly-known statistic that a brand new car is the second largest single purchase of most middle-class Americans' lives, after their home.

I don't think you and I have the same definition of globalism. I'm all for free trade, but it should be on an equal footing - the topic of this thread. Globalism, to me, is the practice of corporations seeking out the maximum profit without any loyalty to the country that made their business possible. It's governments not looking out for their own people and companies first.

If someone can give a reason why the US should pay 4 times as much to the EU as they do to us, I'm willing to listen. That's the crux of this debate.

I did not own a BMW, I was investigating. If I could get a coupe with AWD that is made in America, I would. I tried with my Challenger but not only was it total POS, Dodge didn't want to stand behind their product. The Dodge, BTW, was assembled in Canada with parts from Mexico and the US. I'm glad to be rid of it and it's safe to say I will never own another Chrysler product.

Fair enough, we can agree on that. I think the specific accounting tricks and indirect ways that countries settle their international balance sheets, however, is often lost in this discussion. This is a purely hypothetical example but if Country A is offering $500M in foreign aid (military aid, disaster relief, economic relief, etc) to Country B, or maybe they shouldered a disproportionate share of costs relating to a joint venture in or relating to Country C, then I can understand at a basic level how trade or tariff imbalances might be brought in to rebalance the equation and recover some of those costs by artificially bolstering their own economy.

How does that relate to tariffs in this specific current-events example? Countries do not pay tariffs to each-other. Countries impose tariffs on imported goods, as a means to de-incentivize foreign products and incentivize domestic ones. Asking earnestly... help me draw the connection here?

We can definitely agree on that. However, if 45 decides to jack up tariffs on imported cars, or (quote from OP's article) enact policies that "stop Mercedes-Benz models from driving down Fifth Avenue in New York," or (headline from OP's article) "stop German luxury car imports in the US," then not owning a piece of **** Dodge once it comes time to replace our beloved Audis is going to be much harder for both of us.

My suggestion: eff that noise. More quality German supersedans on every road in every country, let economic forces pressure American manufacturers to step up their game and produce better, more desirable products for their own consumers in an open economy, not by artificially de-incentivizing foreign products through tariffs or other trade blockades.

45 has no ability to force Chrysler Group to produce a better vehicle. Tariffs would arguably allow them to get away with producing an even worse one, if their competition is de-incentivized through taxes on Audis/Mercs/BMWs/etc. And that is bad for American consumers like you and I who just want to drive good cars on American soil, for a fair price.

Poorly worded response on my part. The EU imposes a 10% tariff on US cars. The US imposes a 2.5% tariff. Why shouldn't they be the same?

I don't know the source of that article but it sounds like #FAKENEWS The President has said himself that he is for free and equal trade. I believe that's his goal.

The president is a liar though, so were in a bit of a Liars Paradox with that one.

THIS! This is what happened when the US imposed heavy tariffs on light trucks. The idea was to protect US companies from cheap foreign imports but all it did was eliminate the competition that companies NEED to force improvements to the products. The US auto industry reacted to these tariffs by jacking up the prices on small trucks without improving the quality. Then because they were so profitable they shifted more and more of their marketing and production to this profit center. The unforeseen consequence of course was the near total collapse of the US auto industry when gas prices shot up and the market moved toward smaller more fuel efficient vehicles.

These tariffs won't help America or the American auto worker - they will only help the shareholders of these American companies in the short term, and even that means nothing for most Americans since those shareholders are global too.

There are better ways to make American manufacturing "Great Again" but they require complex solutions for a complex problem. Unfortunately most politicians don't like complex solutions - they prefer very simple ones, the kind that will fit on a bumper sticker.

Show me one person in politics that isn't. I'm not saying I like the guy but he is playing the same game they always have. I can't say I disagree with him on this topic though. I am all for FAIR trade and an agreement from 1994 needs to be adjusted as many of the countries have much stronger economies than they did back then.

Also on the German car thing didn't they say it from an "anonymous source" ? Haven't we seen how accurate that guy can be over the last year and a half ?

Why do we care? Serious question - not snark. What exactly would be achieved if the EU dropped their tariffs to 2.5%? Who would benefit, who would lose out?

Sometimes we get so caught up in "winning" a battle that we often don't even realize what we won was essentially worthless after all.

Wasn't that in the 1970s? That model isn't really applicable today. There are many foreign owned companies building autos in the US. My Honda was made in Ohio - great car. I owned it almost 9 years and didn't have a single problem. And while we are on that topic, why isn't Audi building the Q5 in the US (instead of Mexico)? If Hyundai can build much less expensive cars in the US and turn a profit, why can't Audi?