An honest B7 RS4 to stage 3+ B5 S4 comparison
 

While this topic has been discussed umteen times before, I haven't seen too many objective comparisons from someone who has actually owned and driven both these vehicles. So here goes. Keep in mind that I'm still in the break in period here so I haven't tapped into the full power potential of the RS4 as of yet.

I have spent 1.5 days joy riding in my new beast. Fortunately I live a bit out into the countryside in western Massachusetts and have easy access to some phenomenal driving roads.

No superlatives here, just an honest descriptive comparison.

1. Power/engine:

The B7 RS4 does not have the sheer lunging mid-rpm thrust of a stage 3+ B5 S4. Mind you, I had custom OCT software and was running 25lbs of boost. That being said, throttle response of the RS4 is far superior. It is smooth and fast right from the get-go. That lunging, surging turbo pull in the B5 is also short lived. It really doesn't come on with intensity until about 3500 rpm and starts to fade at just over 6000 rpm. Which is actually faster? It is hard to say since the power delivery is just so different. The objective 0-60 data are roughly the same. The intense power level is, however, easier to manage, control and much more predictable in the RS4 due to its linearity. Exiting a corner in the B5 under near full throttle produced a lunging out the turn that made the whole high speed maneuver feel more unsettling, at least for me.

2. Handling:

ON THE STREET, there is no comparison here. I won't get the RS4 to a track until late spring, so this is not a track comparsion. On smooth country back roads and sweeping on and off ramps, the RS4 dominated over my previous B5 S4 with Stasis Track Sport 600/700 suspension, B5 RS4 replica wheels, and Bridgestone tires sized 225 in width. It also bettered my previous set-up of MTM full suspension, Neuspeed rear sway bar, and BBS wheels/Bridgestone 225's. Body roll seemed to be much more smoothly controlled and the compromise in ride quality to obtain this level of control was not there. The modded B5 with Stasis had less roll in an absolute sense, but the forces put upon my body as a result made me feel less comfortable as speeds rose in the turns. The speeds at which I was able to take on ramps was a good 15mph higher in the RS4 without FEELING like the car was going to cut loose. The steering is much more direct and perfectly weighted in effort. The steering effort in the B5 is too light, especially for the higher powered variants.

3. Shifter/Clutch:

The stock shifter in the RS4 is a huge improvement over the B5 S4. this is no secret. Still, the throws are just a bit long. It wasn't as slick as my UUC short shifter in my B5 S4. It is good enough, however, that I probably won't do anything with it. The clutch in the RS4 is lighter and easier to modulate than the B5 RS4 clutch that was in the S4.

4. Sound:

I had two exhausts on my B5 S4. first was an MTM cat-back, then Milltek full exhaust. The sound of the RS4 is far more intoxicating, although this can't be purely attributed to the exhaust. In the end, however, the final product is what counts, and the aural presence of the stock RS4 is superior.

5.Braking:

Can't really comment until I've done some track time. My B5 had Stoptech 332mm front brakes, but you really never apporach the limits of a braking system on the street.

6. Interior/ergonomics:

RS4 wins by a wide margin, but this isn't really fair since it is a much newer car. Still, a comparison, is a comparison, and there has been enough commotion about comparing these two vehicles that you can't ignore this aspect. Remember, you spend your time in the car looking, interacting, "living" with the interior that you are sitting in.


In the end, what it comes down to for the B7 RS4 vs. stage 3+ B5 S4 is the expression "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts".

Yes, in theory, one can build a B5 S4 to compete with the new RS4. The acceleration times, skid pad numbers, and possibly even road course times are most likely comparable. In the end, however, the result is just not as satisfying. The RS4 has a FAR SUPERIOR NATURAL FLUIDITY and HARMONIOUS INTEGRATION of all it's performance parameters that the pieced-together B5 simply can't match. By comparison, the modded B5 seems like just that - a hack job, pieced together, artificial.

So...from an owner of both.....

In terms of pure driving enjoyment and satisfaction from time behind the wheel, the RS4 wins, and wins easily. It is simply a higher level of automobile, pure and simple. Let the flames come on. If the results were different, I really would have stated so.

Best review I've read. Wait till you get her totally broken in. You'll fall in love again.
 

The Evil-one ain't a lyin'<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/33348.phtml">Warp Speed</a></li></ul>

Thanks for the review
 

and remember the braking will be affected by the tire type a lot.

I would agree that the B7 RS4 is an overall better package...
 

I would also say that the B5 chassis not nearly the chassis the B7 is. The B5 can be made to be a track monster and I would be willing to bet there are very few B7 RS4 that could out perform a propery sorted B5 S4 on the track. My B5 weighs 3300lbs without me in it and the B7 RS4 weighs about 3900 lbs that is a huge difference. The only way to really tell would be to put the same driver in both cars on the same track on the same day. If some power upgrades come to market for the B7 RS4 then the track outcome might be different.

A Stage 3 B5 S4 can do 0 to 60's in under 4 seconds and 1/4 miles in 11.5 to 12.0.... last time I checked that was faster then any B7 RS4.

I have a modified B7 A4 and I enjoy driving the car more on a daily basis as the B5 is not as comfortable. Not too mention the B7 is so well put together the fit and finish is fantastic. Also, the B5 chassis is a wet noodle compared to the B7.

Is the RS4 a better overall package, yes it is and in the future could it be made to be faster then a B5 S4 yes.... but again this is a stock to modified comparison.

IMO, I think this comparison is kind of silly as they are different cars.... I really like my B5 but prefer a b7 as a daily driver.

This is the type of review I was asking for several months back. Unfortunately back then some
 

people on this board were offended and thought I was trying to put down the RS4. Thanks for the great review. Can you comment a little on the torque feel of this car compared to your previous car? Are you saying that this car does not throw you back into your seat the same way the S4 does? This is something I really like about my car and am not sure I will appreciate the smoothness of the RS4.

I think with a few mods to enhance the power, better brakes and a better suspension this car...
 

Would be a faster car around a track then a B5 S4 Stage 3.

This would be a more realistic way of comparing a modified B5 S4 with the RS4. There is no doubt that the RS4 in its present form is a great car.

Agreed.

Your answers....
 

No, you don't have that high torque feeling at the same level as 20+ lbs of boost on the 2.7T. That's what I was referring to in my first paragraph when I talked about that monsterous surge in the mid rpm region with the modded B5's. However, the pull in this car comes on earlier, is instantaneous, and lasts much longer. It definitely DOES throw you back into your seat. And while it may not do so with quite the same maximal ferocity as the modded S4, it keeps you pinned much longer. In terms of a pure fun factor, the RS4 wins for me. The instant massive V8 throttle response is just as much fun as the turbo-surge, but it is different. The RS4 engine as a whole just feels so much more refined. In this aspect, it isn't even close. It revs like a Honda S2000 engine but pulls like a freight train. Simply intoxicating. Like I said, you can talk about all the numbers, specs, etc you want. At the end of the day, this car will leave you with a bigger ****-eating grin than a the B5.

Just wait till you get a STaSIS kit in the RS4. Mandatory upgrade, IMNSHO...

... but pulls like a freight train
 

You hit the nail on the head. It's the entire package. Not only does the engine seem to pull forever, but also the vehicle is rock solid. At 8250 rpm, the engine keeps breathing and pulling. At 160+ mph indicated in 5th gear, it sounds like a freight train.

so funny how u justify everything (id act the same way if i paid $75k+ for a $30k base vehicle)
 

all in all, a very good comparison of the 2 vehicles, cept for...

you are right very accurate in your descriptions about 1-power, 2-handling, 3- shifter/clutch, 5- and 6-interior/erg.

ARGUMENTS:

1-POWER. UGH! all that money and you basically get the B7 S4 engine. its a solid one, but how bout the RS6 engine, or a much more aggressively tuned version of the 4.2??? for less than half the price of the RS4, you could get every top-notch part for the 2.7tt, and build your way to a faster and pretty reliable engine, again car+mods would still be less the HALF the price of the new RS4.

2-HANDLING. no arguments here cept... lol! even for a 2ton car the B7 RS4 handles incredibly! but of course, my gripe here would be, for that much money, why did they build-out a PIGGISH type of car? i mean its no w8 passat, or some other pig like that, but hundreds more lbs??? should be the other way around... like every other touring car out there! they are lighter than the std or sport versions. ie, porsche, corvette zo6, etc.

3-SHIFTER/CLUTCH. shifter and clutch are iight. iight only bc, even tho there are no complaints bout the clutch, but the shifter!!!! cmon, for $80,000 they cant put in a real short shifter, like the B5 RS4 and the TANOGA??? for that much money, they should have toyguy shifters in the damn things!

4-SOUND. give me a break! maybe stock to stock the RS4 sounds better, but there is no way with either of those exhaust on a ko4'd car would the RS4 sound better than those whining turbos exploding into high rev! JUST NO WAY! not even with the RS4 with ESP off and the Sport mode on!
this is where i COMPLETELY DISAGREE with you, and until this point, i thought the rest of your review was on-point. i think all that money you spent on the bloody OVER-PRICED TOURING SPORT COMPACT is making you believe and hear things that simply are in no way conceivable.

5-BRAKING. no comment. this is where i think you really are gettin your money's worth! prolly why the car is so damn expensive too! car is STINKING HEAVY, and these 8-pots make it stop... REALLY AND SURPRISINGLY WELL!

6-INTERIOR/ERGONOMICS. of course a newer generation vehicle is goin to have its upgrades in interior ambiance and ergonomics, but the B7 interior isn't VASTLY different from the B5. in fact if you look carefully, the B7's while being more contemporary and functional, gets all of its cues from previous generations. so naturally the B7's is better, but the whole "Remember, you spend your time in the car looking, interacting, "living" with the interior that you are sitting in." this is complete ****e... while having some merit, the B5 S4 isnt that bad and when i pass you or while you are getting passed by a STGIII B5 S4, i hope that the vastly better interior, seats/ergonomics, etc hugs you, consoles you, and pats you on the back when you break down and ask yourself how a vehicle which is less than half the cost just toasted your overpriced piggy.

ok, now speaking from experience... i have driven every variation of the B5 and B7. and bottomline, as SICK and NASTY of a car the RS4 is (i mean cmon, we are all audiphiles here, no?), it is a steaming heap when you think of what you are getting for basically $80k.

the RS4 is basically an $80k touring sport compact sedan. its base model A4 2.0t is $30k. of course they are not the same car, but the reason why B5 S4 stgIII guys hate so much is bc no matter how ill the RS4 is, its a total ripoff. i mean for siginificantly less, u could get pretty much the same car in the B7 S4. same engine, non widebody, not as fancy breaks, and personally i think the dual twin tips look waaaaaaaaaaay better than the RS4 oval tips.

my bad, rambling... but yeah, and whats this diahrrea of the fingertips...

"By comparison, the modded B5 seems like just that - a hack job, pieced together, artificial.
---------hello, the a modded B5 is simply an attempt to get the car to how it should have come
with RS4 performance. so hack job? are you calling the B5 RS4 a hack job? you wanna talk about hack-jobs, how bout the B7 RS4 SEDAN? that's right i said it? car should've only come in an AVANT, just like evey REAL RS in the past. not this HACK of an AVANT, called the US version b7 RS4. and for all that money u dont even get the bloddy real steering wheel!

So...from an owner of both.....

In terms of pure driving enjoyment and satisfaction from time behind the wheel, the RS4 wins, and wins easily. It is simply a higher level of automobile, pure and simple. Let the flames come on. If the results were different, I really would have stated so."
--------SATISFACTION is when you spend less and but get more. by spending less than half the budget of the B7 RS4, you could easily make a reliable car that is faster and literally a more fun driving experience. which is what the stgIII B5 S4 is. and one of the best ever. still and will always be one of the best all around luxury hp-per-$$$ packages ever!

so is it PURE AND SIMPLE? is it a higher level of automible? i know its sure as hell more EXPENSIVE... but you tell me, for the money, and for what you get, if the RS4 is that much more satisfying. bc if u ask me, i think the personal driving experieince could never surpass the stgIIIB5. not the sound, the pinning in your seat--the PERFORMANCE. but most importantly ANY AND ALL B7's in your rear view mirror!

as proud as you are of your pseudo exotic car (its just an overpriced sport compact sedan), if you arent a real car afficionado i commend you for investing in an audi, namely the RS4. however, if you know your stuff, and have any concept of money (which i naturally find RS4 owners lack and stgiiiS4 guys have too much of), then you kno as good a car the RS4 is, it does not top a stgiii, and isnt hands down better in any way. only to yall it is bc you have to justify all the money you just spent on the car that is getting smoked by its cousin of a car which is 2 generations older(scratching head, yes... its true! and (in chris tucker voice-over) YOU KNOW THISSS... MAAAANNNN!

that is what is up.

happy holidays to all. its the Z-man, OUT!
holler!

ZIZOU, are you really that ill-informed, or are you just pulling our legs?
 

ZIZOU, obviously you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this engine. You wrote the two following statements that are so factually wrong I don't know where to start:

"UGH! all that money and you basically get the B7 S4 engine, its a solid one, but how bout the RS6 engine, or a much more aggressively tuned version of the 4.2???"

"u could get pretty much the same car in the B7 S4. same engine"

For the record, the only similarities between the B7 S4 V8 and the RS4 V8 are the bore, stroke, cylinder pitch, and number of cylinders. Lets compare and contrast the differences:

---------------------- B7 S4 Fuel Injected V8 ------ B7 RS4 FSI V8 ----

Here are the similarities

Bore ---------------------- 84.5 mm --------------------- 84.5 mm
Stroke -------------------- 92.8 mm --------------------- 92.8 mm
Spacing ------------------- 91 mm ----------------------- 91 mm
Displacement -------------- 4163 cc --------------------- 4163 cc

Here are the differences

Horsepower ----------- 340 @ 7000 rpm ----------- 420 HP @ 7500 rpm
Torque -------------- 302 lbs ft @ 3500 rpm ---- 317 lbs ft @ 6000 rpm
Compression Ratio --------- 11.0:1 ---------------------- 12.5:1
# Valves ------------------ 5V -------------------------- 4V
Intake Valve Diameter ----- 27 mm ----------------------- 33.85 mm
Exhaust Valve Diameter ---- 30 mm ----------------------- 28 mm
Intake Cam Drive ---------- Belt ------------------------ Chain
Exhaust Cam Drive -------- Chain ------------------------ Chain
Fuel Injection ------ Manifold Fuel Injection ------- Direct Injection

On the RS4 the following additional engine components have been modified:

Cylinder Head
Crankshaft
Pistons
Connecting rods
Intake Manifold
Exhaust Manifold
Red Line 8250 rpm

Nuff said ...

out of the box.... the rs4 is superior to all stock and modified platforms, period
 

what i mean is spend a ton of money and i'm sure you will be faster straight line. Spend a ton of money on suspension, braking, lightening and you'll be faster around the track. Fact is, it is damn hard to beat this car overall, period. Much respect to the RS4...

thanks vijay...
 

Since I purchased the car, there aren't enough excuses through the day to get out and just drive because it is just that good.

Just wait until the motor is well broken-in...
 

When you can live in the 6.500+ RPM with the close ratio 6 speed at full throttle, the memories of monster touque of the modded B5 fades very quickly. I speak from my own experience. My B6 S4 never really erased my B5, but the RS4 is another story completely.
PS: I'm @ 5,500 miles and it simply SCREAMS.

Since you are so focused on the economics of it all, I will point out that......
 

The total cost of my stage 3 B5 S4, including the NEW CAR purchased in September 1999, parts and labor was $73,000, not including my $4000 audio system. Add in a little inflation and you are talking an $80,000+ vehicle in today's dollars. Please explain to me how this is so much cheaper?

Like, way far out man.

RI RS4, you rock: The voice of reason speaks. Listen.
 

I'm really not taking sides here.

I'm sure ZIZOU had something to say, I'm just not sure what it was-- I didn't read more then I needed to in order to get the gist.

But RI RS4's response was just so like the gavel coming down, I find myself just in stitches over the exchange, in a fond way for both participants, and uncontrollably, mind you.

Well done you two !

If ever there was a just cause to use that oft abused abbreviation, L-O-L !!

Love it !

Thanks. One thing that I think is lost in the Modded B5 S4 is the early availability of torque in
 

lower rpm range. Basically the torque is increased dramatically but also available like you say more around the 3500rmp range. I will probably like the the fact that the B7 rs4 has the torque available much earlier, but I am not sure if I can live with the fact that it's around a 100ft/lbs less than the B5.

My peak tq is 420 wheel at 2800 rpms and peak wheel hp is 6500 rpm at 370 on 91... not to take away
 

from Vijay's comparison because it is valid but development of Stage 3's has improved since he owned one.


This is the dyno chart after Revolver cams were put it.... the car needs tuning in the mid range which should happen in Jan
<img src="http://images17.fotki.com/v349/photos/6/673844/2561375/Dynoplot-vi.jpg?1160975640">

Yeah, any Stage III B5 that doesn't completely walk away from an RS4 in a straight line
 

should get itself checked out for problems.

There should be a large difference in power.

*(hand covers mouth)*

You won't miss the torque....
 

Believe me, I know EXACTLY what you are talking about --that huge swell of torque that comes on between about 3500 and 5500 rpm. But remember how short that intense pull is also. The RS4 may not have the same peak level of pull, but it pulls so hard for so long that the rush you get is just as intense. and, it does it with such an incredibly smooth and secure feeling. There was a sense in the B5 that the car was on the verge of out-of-control...I think you know what I mean. No such sense in this machine.

And furthermore......
 

A full and proper B5 S4 to RS4 conversion will cost close to $200k. "No way" you say. The car was featured right here on Audiworld. Look it up. You are only focused on the pure speed element. Why didn't you just get a used 'Stang. It will seat four, and can easily be made faster than a B5 S4 for significantly less money.

Bauer, you do have valid points.....
 

<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/561/dsc00011-1.jpg"></center><p>There is no question that B5 tuning has evolved since 2003, the year in which my car was "completed" in terms of the build-up. I will also never dispute that currently, a B5 can be built to be faster in straight line than the stock RS4. That, quite honestly, is a no-brainer. Nobody should dispute this. But now you are talking cams, new differentials, etc. which after a certain point translates to a whole different car. The point I am making is that given the WHOLE PACKAGE in which straight line speed is only one component, the stock B7 RS4 is superior to a modded B5 at a certain price point comparison. It is definitely a subjective thing. It is the same reason, the Audi S6 beat the BMW M5 in Car &amp; Driver's latest comparison. It is the same reason that a Honda S2000 is far more entertaining to drive than a comparably priced Mustang GT.

In 1988, I was choosing between a Mustang GT, Then 225hp, and a Honda Prelude, then 140hp. One drive in the Prelude was all it took. It wasn't anywhere as fast as the Mustang, but the overall execution of the car was FAR superior.

I was seriously into moding for many years. Still, in the end, every car was somehow deficient in the way everything worked together. It is more than simple 1/4 mile times, or lateral G's. Give a team of dedicated high level auto engineers money and time, and the results are spectacular.

Look at it this way: you can get equally as drunk on a cheaper New York wine as you can on a fine French Bordeaux, but the subjective experience of the latter will be far superior to the former.

I really don't know how else to describe all of this.

Anyway....I came across this pic.....It is an interior shot of my old B5. Check out some of the interior mods....

You both are saying the same thing, you just have different tastes.
 

And of course that's fine. Vijay, it sounds like the RS4 was the natural choice for you. I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Others may prefer the B5 even with the obvious shortcomings it has.

B5 tuning has come a long ways. There's a guy over on the B5 forum right now with stock K03's with over 130k miles on them. He's full weight and running 12.5 at over 112 mph in the quarter mile with just bolt on parts.

That's seriously quick for stock turbos. More an more full weight cars are getting into the 11's with K04 turbos.

As you said, that's just one part of the equation...but it's one part that the RS4 will not catch up to any time soon.

I prefer California reds:^)
 

As I said in a previuos post I do agree the the RS4 is an overall better package and that I enjoy my B7 on a daily basis then my B5. But for 2 days a week my B5 is unbeatable. The B5 is a more raw driving experience and B7 more refined.... as Verruckt said it sounds like we agree:^)

Awesome to see some objective, mature, and informed comparisons between the two vehicles
 

Vijay, Bauer, and Verr?ckt, kudos to you guys for the informative discussion.

Cheers

You must come to the Eastern part of the state for a GTG next year.
 

Stay tuned to this forum for announcements as we plan the future GTG's

z is a lost child, he will one day find himself : P

I used to be an organizer for major Audi enthusiast events in the Northeast from '00-'03
 

Don't know if you remember or heard of any of the Northeast Summer Aftermarket Events. Hosted at Ira Porsche/Audi for the first 3 years, then Fathers &amp; Sons Audi, then KTR Performance in '04 although I wasn't around for that one since I had sold my S4. Unfortunately, the event got overshadowed by Waterfest over the years, and the original core group of organizers dispersed from the region. To my recollection, however, it was the biggest Audi-only event of its kind in the U.S.

I think that's fairly similar, except newer in technology. I agree w/ Z. The V8 needs twin turbos
 

That's when you'd get 500+hp for a $80k package. Anything less of 500, and you're not getting a real bargain at all.

Though you can't compare a modded S4 to a stock car

Sheesh - nothing like rambling, no punctuation no-sense posts to make me want my click back!

PWNED!

mind that is actually $73k,
 

Tax shouldn't be included. What you gonna get? little 333HP M3 and save yourself $23k+? spend another 20k+ for M5?

I am a longterm BMW fans, 3 bmw in a roll but still.......I love my RS4.

Agreed.
 

Well said.

O.CT never really was a well sorted out package and perhaps this is what has Vijay confused with power and numbers? Today's tuning is really strong compared to the early adopter offerings.

For whatever reason the B7 still doesn't fit my eye or bang for the buck?