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TDI update then NOX sensor throws a code
My A6 has never thrown a code (MIL has never turned on). I got the TDI update done earlier this month, and yesterday the MIL turned on. Scanned the codes and it turns out one of the NOX sensors had an implausible reading, at 255 km/h no less, which is even more implausible since the car is governed to 210. There was just one incidence so I cleared the code. I'll see if it comes back and do something then. It will be interesting to see what other gremlins appear.
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That sucks but I wonder if it just changed some parameters that put the NOX outside of specs. This is similar to a couple of recalls that came out for the A3, R8 and a few others where you would do the update then an extended test drive to see if a specific fault would set and if it did then you would replace the ABS module or high pressure pump in those cases and maybe the NOX in this case. Fortunately for us those items are now covered 10yrs/120 which I’m assuming in Canada also, right? |
This is an old thread, but wanted to chime in that My new to me 3.0 TDI did the same thing post fix. Dealer said this is quite common and most don't make it off the lot before popping.
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The EPA fix, the gift that just keeps giving. :D |
Originally Posted by KevinGary
(Post 25246412)
The EPA fix, the gift that just keeps giving. :D |
Just an FYI, my 2016 TDI hasn't thrown any lights since the update.
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Originally Posted by ByByBMW
(Post 25246593)
Just an FYI, my 2016 TDI hasn't thrown any lights since the update.
Same here for my 2014... |
I had the fix done in January of this year. No issues or problems until now. Maybe it's bad juju from this thread because it's at the dealer now getting a new NOx sensor.
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I know, old thread, had the recall done 2 weeks ago ('14 A6) and got the NOX MIL...they wanted to charge me $989. to replace it. I always have to fight with them because they never see that I have an extended warranty. Always have a problem with the dealer....
Is this sensor failing an ongoing problem or is it a one time failure after the diesel fix? Can you get Audi to pay for it, isn't that part of the emissions system that's covered to 100k and has an even further extended warranty after the fix?? |
Originally Posted by Tanket
(Post 25269782)
I know, old thread, had the recall done 2 weeks ago ('14 A6) and got the NOX MIL...they wanted to charge me $989. to replace it. I always have to fight with them because they never see that I have an extended warranty. Always have a problem with the dealer....
Is this sensor failing an ongoing problem or is it a one time failure after the diesel fix? Can you get Audi to pay for it, isn't that part of the emissions system that's covered to 100k and has an even further extended warranty after the fix?? |
Originally Posted by gguy
(Post 25269785)
with the frequency with which this seems to happen after the update, i would tell them to replace it as part of the update. |
FYI...Had 2 O2 sensors replaced under the diesel emissions warranty in 2018, one in August, another in October. The first one did not throw a code, the second did. In both cases driveability, throttle application smoothness, was compromised.
TDI Emission Fix was done in January 2018. |
I am not looking forward to the “fix” |
Maybe even Audi has worked out that making a “clean burning diesel” is impossible. Burning oil and expecting “clean” is not compatible. Enjoy the extra torque while you can before manufacturers can’t build them clean enough and so few cities will allow them |
I will |
Originally Posted by KevinGary
(Post 25270318)
I will Our 2016 TDI had the fix a year ago and we have had zero, zilch, nada issues with anything. Power, mileage all good. No CEL's, driveablility is as good as it was before the fix. And when you figure in the amount of money returned to you from the various entities, this car was the buy of the decade. Even my wife, who is NOT a car person, loves the TDI. |
Originally Posted by ByByBMW
(Post 25270411)
I know you have been a long time proponent of not doing the fix. But why?
Our 2016 TDI had the fix a year ago and we have had zero, zilch, nada issues with anything. Power, mileage all good. No CEL's, driveablility is as good as it was before the fix. And when you figure in the amount of money returned to you from the various entities, this car was the buy of the decade. Even my wife, who is NOT a car person, loves the TDI. |
Originally Posted by ByByBMW
(Post 25270411)
I know you have been a long time proponent of not doing the fix. But why?
Our 2016 TDI had the fix a year ago and we have had zero, zilch, nada issues with anything. Power, mileage all good. No CEL's, driveablility is as good as it was before the fix. And when you figure in the amount of money returned to you from the various entities, this car was the buy of the decade. Even my wife, who is NOT a car person, loves the TDI. So, my thinking is that I have an engine that is incredible -- that certainly is not broken and in no need of a fix. In weighing the costs/benefits: for the fix I would collect the remaining $4K+ of settlement and 120K warranty at unknown risk of ruining the driving experience. By holding out awhile longer (we have until 4/2020) I delay monetary gratification and warranty piece of mind (but throttle lag, if experienced cannot be remedied/warrantied) while continuing to enjoy an unadulterated engine. Also factoring into this equation is that (1) I keep my cars 10+ years and do not want to turn car in should fix ruin it, (2) being in a cold climate --> the thought of potentially later transmission shifts does not thrill me and (3) being at increased risk for service appointments to fix O2 or NO sensors would be a PIA. I will eventually pull the trigger, but not now. |
Originally Posted by Tanket
(Post 25270442)
Still love ours, just a little less. It runs rough, especially after the NOX replacement (with CEL), it's louder, lost a considerable amount of acceleration & torque feel, has some quirks and farts that feel like small misfires or backfires, apparently uses more fuel and DEF too....not great. I would do it again due to the total amount of $$ they gave us but I think it was a half assed fix and they should have been required to update the fix if the cars had problems related to it. They did NOT cover my NOX sensor repair even though it happened right after the fix. I wonder what else is not covered?
From the court settlement documents ———- “Warranty shall cover all parts and labor, as well as the cost or provision of a loaner vehicle for warranty service lasting longer than 3 hours. Defendants must not impose on consumers any fees or charges, and must pay any fees or charges imposed by its dealers related to the warranty service. The Extended Emissions Warranty shall provide warranty coverage as follows. 3.9.1 The Emission Control System warranty must cover the entire emission control system including (1) all components that are replaced, repaired, installed, upgraded, or otherwise modified as part of the Approved Emissions Modification; (2) all components listed in subparagraphs 3.9.1 and 3.9.2; (3) and any other component that can reasonably be impacted by effects of the Approved Emissions Modification. The Emission Control System warranty must cover, at a minimum, the following parts: i. ii. iii. iv. v. vi. 3.9.2 consists of the 3.9.3 greater of: i. ii. The entire exhaust aftertreatment system including the DOC, the DPF, the SCR catalyst, the dosing injector and other DEF system components, all sensors and actuators, and any exhaust flap; The entire fuel system, including the fuel pumps, high pressure common rail, fuel injectors, and all sensors and actuators; The EGR system including the EGR valve, EGR bypass valve, EGR cooler, EGR filter, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors and actuators; The turbocharger system including all related hoses and pipes, all sensors and actuators; The OBD System and any malfunctions detected by the OBD systems; and The ECU and the TCU. The Engine Long Block warranty must cover the engine sub-assembly that assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train. The warranty period for the Extended Emissions Warranty shall be the 10 years or 120,000 actual miles whichever comes first; and 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first, from date and mileage of implementing the Emissions Modification, except for vehicles offered for resale, in which case, from the date and mileage of the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale.” |
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270456)
Your NOX sensor should have been covered.. From the court settlement documents ———- “Warranty shall cover all parts and labor, as well as the cost or provision of a loaner vehicle for warranty service lasting longer than 3 hours. Defendants must not impose on consumers any fees or charges, and must pay any fees or charges imposed by its dealers related to the warranty service. The Extended Emissions Warranty shall provide warranty coverage as follows. 3.9.1 The Emission Control System warranty must cover the entire emission control system including (1) all components that are replaced, repaired, installed, upgraded, or otherwise modified as part of the Approved Emissions Modification; (2) all components listed in subparagraphs 3.9.1 and 3.9.2; (3) and any other component that can reasonably be impacted by effects of the Approved Emissions Modification. The Emission Control System warranty must cover, at a minimum, the following parts: i. ii. iii. iv. v. vi. 3.9.2 consists of the 3.9.3 greater of: i. ii. The entire exhaust aftertreatment system including the DOC, the DPF, the SCR catalyst, the dosing injector and other DEF system components, all sensors and actuators, and any exhaust flap; The entire fuel system, including the fuel pumps, high pressure common rail, fuel injectors, and all sensors and actuators; The EGR system including the EGR valve, EGR bypass valve, EGR cooler, EGR filter, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors and actuators; The turbocharger system including all related hoses and pipes, all sensors and actuators; The OBD System and any malfunctions detected by the OBD systems; and The ECU and the TCU. The Engine Long Block warranty must cover the engine sub-assembly that assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train. The warranty period for the Extended Emissions Warranty shall be the 10 years or 120,000 actual miles whichever comes first; and 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first, from date and mileage of implementing the Emissions Modification, except for vehicles offered for resale, in which case, from the date and mileage of the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale.” |
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270456)
Your NOX sensor should have been covered.. From the court settlement documents ———- “Warranty shall cover all parts and labor, as well as the cost or provision of a loaner vehicle for warranty service lasting longer than 3 hours. Defendants must not impose on consumers any fees or charges, and must pay any fees or charges imposed by its dealers related to the warranty service. The Extended Emissions Warranty shall provide warranty coverage as follows. 3.9.1 The Emission Control System warranty must cover the entire emission control system including (1) all components that are replaced, repaired, installed, upgraded, or otherwise modified as part of the Approved Emissions Modification; (2) all components listed in subparagraphs 3.9.1 and 3.9.2; (3) and any other component that can reasonably be impacted by effects of the Approved Emissions Modification. The Emission Control System warranty must cover, at a minimum, the following parts: i. ii. iii. iv. v. vi. 3.9.2 consists of the 3.9.3 greater of: i. ii. The entire exhaust aftertreatment system including the DOC, the DPF, the SCR catalyst, the dosing injector and other DEF system components, all sensors and actuators, and any exhaust flap; The entire fuel system, including the fuel pumps, high pressure common rail, fuel injectors, and all sensors and actuators; The EGR system including the EGR valve, EGR bypass valve, EGR cooler, EGR filter, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors and actuators; The turbocharger system including all related hoses and pipes, all sensors and actuators; The OBD System and any malfunctions detected by the OBD systems; and The ECU and the TCU. The Engine Long Block warranty must cover the engine sub-assembly that assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train. The warranty period for the Extended Emissions Warranty shall be the 10 years or 120,000 actual miles whichever comes first; and 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first, from date and mileage of implementing the Emissions Modification, except for vehicles offered for resale, in which case, from the date and mileage of the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale.” Found these too.... "Performance Representations and Protections Defendants represent that the Emissions Compliant Repair shall not result in “Reduced Performance.” In the event that the Emissions Compliant Repair causes Reduced Performance of the Eligible Vehicle, Volkswagen shall make an additional payment of $500 for each affected Eligible Vehicle. Reduced Performance means a change in any of the following performance attributes: (1) a reduction in fuel economy of more than 3 MPG; (2) a decrease of greater than 5% in peak horsepower; or (3) decrease of greater than 5% peak torque. These will be measured by Volkswagen pursuant to industry standards in its submission to EPA and CARB. If the regulators approve the Emissions Compliant Repair, Defendants shall disclose the extent of any Reduced Performance in a Notice to affected Class Members. If the Emission Compliant Repair causes substantial, material adverse degradation above and beyond the Reduced Performance levels specified above, Plaintiffs reserve their right to seek, and Defendants reserve their right to oppose, additional remedies from the Court." And: "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer" |
My NOx sensor replacement cost was fully covered; no discussion was needed about it at the dealer.
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You can access the extended warranty details here. https://audidiesellookup.com/pdf/VWC...Gen1_Final.pdf FYI ours needed an AdBlue injector pump recently and that was covered no question. Service manager prioritized the repair so that we didn’t have to wait for an appointment. Good luck! |
Originally Posted by AMDG75
(Post 25270449)
I don't speak for Kevin, but my hesitation in completing the fix is based on complaints by many of (1) intermittent 'throttle lag', which can be dangerous, (2) changes in transmission shift points that are purportedly designed to induce hotter engine temps and (3) reports by many of sensor faults (including colleague of mine, who had fix in summer). While changes in transmission shifts and decreased fuel economy are contemplated by the fix settlement, throttle lag is not AND there is no TSB to fix or method to revert to old ECU.
So, my thinking is that I have an engine that is incredible -- that certainly is not broken and in no need of a fix. In weighing the costs/benefits: for the fix I would collect the remaining $4K+ of settlement and 120K warranty at unknown risk of ruining the driving experience. By holding out awhile longer (we have until 4/2020) I delay monetary gratification and warranty piece of mind (but throttle lag, if experienced cannot be remedied/warrantied) while continuing to enjoy an unadulterated engine. Also factoring into this equation is that (1) I keep my cars 10+ years and do not want to turn car in should fix ruin it, (2) being in a cold climate --> the thought of potentially later transmission shifts does not thrill me and (3) being at increased risk for service appointments to fix O2 or NO sensors would be a PIA. I will eventually pull the trigger, but not now. |
Okay then, guess that answers my question. Good luck all.
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Originally Posted by KevinGary
(Post 25270564)
‘You can speak for me because I could not have expressed my concern any better!
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270456)
Your NOX sensor should have been covered.. From the court settlement documents ———- |
Also, here is a link to the court document I quoted first. Should give you all you need to deal with that uninformed dealer. https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/wp...pendix%20B.pdf |
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270520)
You can access the extended warranty details here. https://audidiesellookup.com/pdf/VWC...Gen1_Final.pdf FYI ours needed an AdBlue injector pump recently and that was covered no question. Service manager prioritized the repair so that we didn’t have to wait for an appointment. Good luck
Originally Posted by Chiclet11
(Post 25270518)
My NOx sensor replacement cost was fully covered; no discussion was needed about it at the dealer.
Thanks for that... "Our records indicate that an EPA and CARB approved emissions modification has been completed on this vehicle. It is eligible for an Extended Emissions Warranty, but the warranty has not been issued to the vehicle yet" Fix was done on 1/17, says to check back in 10 days??Extended Emissions Warranty Information: "Please check back in the next ten (10) days to access the Extended Emissions Warranty for this vehicle" Fix was done on 1-17th, NOX CEL on 1-28. Charged my extended (Fidelity) warranty: Labor $342.00, 4G0-907-807-P Sensor $638.00, Total $980.00 Today 2-2 my DEF light came on....I'll talk to them on Monday. Thanks for all the input! |
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270711)
Also, here is a link to the court document I quoted first. Should give you all you need to deal with that uninformed dealer. https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/wp...pendix%20B.pdf 8.2.12. Failure to Honor Warranty. If Defendants fail to honor the Extended Emissions Warranty under Paragraph 3.9 of this Appendix B, including by failing to cover all costs of parts and labor, or by failing to pay for or provide a loaner car for repairs of more than 3 hours, Defendants must pay to the United States and CARB (at a 50/50 split) a stipulated penalty of $40,000 per failure, except for failing to pay for or provide a loaner car, for which Defendants must pay a stipulated penalty of $1,000 per failure. |
Originally Posted by Tanket
(Post 25270718)
Thanks, that's the appendix....I like this one, interesting.
8.2.12. Failure to Honor Warranty. If Defendants fail to honor the Extended Emissions Warranty under Paragraph 3.9 of this Appendix B, including by failing to cover all costs of parts and labor, or by failing to pay for or provide a loaner car for repairs of more than 3 hours, Defendants must pay to the United States and CARB (at a 50/50 split) a stipulated penalty of $40,000 per failure, except for failing to pay for or provide a loaner car, for which Defendants must pay a stipulated penalty of $1,000 per failure. I never ask for a loaner. Two extra Audis to drive. BUT, if I ever need a Q7 while ours is being repaired, this could come in handy. I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you discuss this with the dealer. :) |
The dealers seem to be all over the place regarding their understanding of what is covered by the TDi warranty. Hopefully, AOA straightens them all out. |
Originally Posted by J. Patterson
(Post 25270735)
That IS interesting. My quote of the emmisions warranty coverage came from page 21. I never ask for a loaner. Two extra Audis to drive. BUT, if I ever need a Q7 while ours is being repaired, this could come in handy. I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you discuss this with the dealer. :) |
My dealer gives me a loaner for any service, including my voluntary 5,000 mile interval oil change. They are great to deal with. |
I'm delaying the update not because I think it will ruin the car, but because I'll get warranty coverage to 160k.
I expect to need a dpf replacement during that time and the extended warranty seems to now cover that too whereas we were on the hook for it prescandal. If you can wait, it seems quite beneficial to do so. |
Originally Posted by 2014a6tdi
(Post 25271036)
I'm delaying the update not because I think it will ruin the car, but because I'll get warranty coverage to 160k.
I expect to need a dpf replacement during that time and the extended warranty seems to now cover that too whereas we were on the hook for it prescandal. If you can wait, it seems quite beneficial to do so. |
Originally Posted by 2014a6tdi
(Post 25271036)
I'm delaying the update not because I think it will ruin the car, but because I'll get warranty coverage to 160k.
I expect to need a dpf replacement during that time and the extended warranty seems to now cover that too whereas we were on the hook for it prescandal. If you can wait, it seems quite beneficial to do so. |
Spoke to AOA and the TDI center about weather the NOX sensor is covered, neither one could give a definitive answer. They kept saying that the dealer contacts Audi to see if it's covered and to get approval. Fidelity does not see any cross coverage under any other warranty and is going to cover the cost, they said that they would see it if it was covered by Audi. There is also clause that says "a 3.9.7 The Extended Emissions Warranty shall not supersede or void any
outstanding warranty. To the extent there is a conflict in any provision(s) of this warranty and any outstanding warranty, that conflict shall be resolved to the benefit of the consumer." They are taking that to mean that if there is ANY other warranty in place that would cover that repair, even if you paid for a separate insurance plan, extended warranty, the other warranty supersedes the diesel repair extended one. Not sure how an insurance company would feel about that. So basically it's up to the dealer who is handling the claim, she gave an example of the fact that the block is covered but only the dealer can decide if it was the diesel repair that caused the problem. If anyone has found proof that the NOX sensor is covered please post it to the forum.....Didn't get to my dealer yet because I'm waiting for a call back from Audi. |
Originally Posted by Tanket
(Post 25271902)
Spoke to AOA and the TDI center about weather the NOX sensor is covered, neither one could give a definitive answer. They kept saying that the dealer contacts Audi to see if it's covered and to get approval. Fidelity does not see any cross coverage under any other warranty and is going to cover the cost, they said that they would see it if it was covered by Audi. There is also clause that says "a 3.9.7 The Extended Emissions Warranty shall not supersede or void any
outstanding warranty. To the extent there is a conflict in any provision(s) of this warranty and any outstanding warranty, that conflict shall be resolved to the benefit of the consumer." They are taking that to mean that if there is ANY other warranty in place that would cover that repair, even if you paid for a separate insurance plan, extended warranty, the other warranty supersedes the diesel repair extended one. Not sure how an insurance company would feel about that. So basically it's up to the dealer who is handling the claim, she gave an example of the fact that the block is covered but only the dealer can decide if it was the diesel repair that caused the problem. If anyone has found proof that the NOX sensor is covered please post it to the forum.....Didn't get to my dealer yet because I'm waiting for a call back from Audi. |
Originally Posted by 2014a6tdi
(Post 25271907)
NOX is a byproduct of lean combustion which his common for diesel engines at low loading (e.g. idle). NOX is only produced as a result of combustion. NOX emissions are the reason that Audi has the dieselgate scandal. NOX sensor(s) is/are in the exhaust stream and is/are a primary feedback loop for DEF usage in the exhaust. Does Audi really not have a list of "emissions control systems" that are covered? Amazeballs.
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Originally Posted by 2014a6tdi
(Post 25271907)
NOX is a byproduct of lean combustion which his common for diesel engines at low loading (e.g. idle). NOX is only produced as a result of combustion. NOX emissions are the reason that Audi has the dieselgate scandal. NOX sensor(s) is/are in the exhaust stream and is/are a primary feedback loop for DEF usage in the exhaust. Does Audi really not have a list of "emissions control systems" that are covered? Amazeballs.
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/wp...WEBVERSION.pdf |
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