H&R Questions (request further suspension 101, Long)
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Joined: Mar 2001
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H&R Questions (request further suspension 101, Long)
Hi All,
Trying to sort out the whole suspension thing so I'm asking several Q's.
1. I'm mechanically inclined, but I've convinced myself both ways on this one....which way do you get the most ground clearance out of the H&R coilover setup? With the locking ring at the bottom (down being towards the road) or at the top?
2. I saw in the past history some information abt. having coils too compressed, but it didn't seem to be resolved. I'd pretty much assume that if you've got several coils which are touching each other at rest (full load) then they're too compressed.
3. Is height adjustment something I should consider doing myself? Any pitfalls or prior experience recommended?
4. I presume that an alignment is required after readjusting the ride height?
Now for $ Q's & locations in Chi-town...how much would you expect to pay to readjust the ride height & do the alignment? Any places in Chicago that you'd recommend (good experiences/service, etc).
TIA,
Dale
Trying to sort out the whole suspension thing so I'm asking several Q's.
1. I'm mechanically inclined, but I've convinced myself both ways on this one....which way do you get the most ground clearance out of the H&R coilover setup? With the locking ring at the bottom (down being towards the road) or at the top?
2. I saw in the past history some information abt. having coils too compressed, but it didn't seem to be resolved. I'd pretty much assume that if you've got several coils which are touching each other at rest (full load) then they're too compressed.
3. Is height adjustment something I should consider doing myself? Any pitfalls or prior experience recommended?
4. I presume that an alignment is required after readjusting the ride height?
Now for $ Q's & locations in Chi-town...how much would you expect to pay to readjust the ride height & do the alignment? Any places in Chicago that you'd recommend (good experiences/service, etc).
TIA,
Dale
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,516
Likes: 1
Herr Frettiloh says...
"A question and answer session with Joachim Frettiloh, Eibach's motorsports and suspension development manager, gave us the opportunity to present questions commonly asked by enthusiasts:
Ian Kuah
Q. How much should you lower a car's suspension from stock before you run into problems?
A. As a rule, we say that if the OE suspension has 80mm bump travel, you really don't go below 40mm. Generally we drop ride height by 30mm on springs alone, a further 10mm with springs and shock absorbers. Lower the car any more and you start to run into problems with steering geometry, castor, etc. Better driving qualities must always take precedence over appearance.
The other problem is the sheer practicality of it. If the spring platform is above the wheel, there is probably not much clearance. Certain combinations may only work with small wheel offsets. Then you might find that the spare wheel no longer fits and so on. On a race car, you can do anything to make something work, but on a road car there are limits."
Ian Kuah
Q. How much should you lower a car's suspension from stock before you run into problems?
A. As a rule, we say that if the OE suspension has 80mm bump travel, you really don't go below 40mm. Generally we drop ride height by 30mm on springs alone, a further 10mm with springs and shock absorbers. Lower the car any more and you start to run into problems with steering geometry, castor, etc. Better driving qualities must always take precedence over appearance.
The other problem is the sheer practicality of it. If the spring platform is above the wheel, there is probably not much clearance. Certain combinations may only work with small wheel offsets. Then you might find that the spare wheel no longer fits and so on. On a race car, you can do anything to make something work, but on a road car there are limits."
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,516
Likes: 1
and...
"Q. Height-adjustable suspension is becoming more common as an aftermarket option for road cars. Is this just a fashion inspired by motorsport?
A. Our uprated suspension components are a good solution for normal customers who want tauter handling and a better look. People who drive their cars on track days are more demanding and need a more specialized kind of approach to uprated suspension. They would be more inclined towards adjustable setups with race-style helper springs and height adjustment.
Height-adjustable suspension really belongs on the race track. I say this because altering the ride height also requires suspension and steering geometry corrections. Ultimately, this can be a safety issue. If you let an inexperienced customer loose with easily adjustable suspension, anything could happen.
Q. There are so many variations in possible wheel/tire combinations from, say, 15to 19-in, diameters for cars like a BMW 3 Series. And, of course, different tires in the same size can produce quite different ride and handling characteristics. How do you average out a spring setting?
A. We are too small a company to test every possible combination and, in fact, major manufacturers themselves cannot get around to testing every possible combination before a car is launched. So we try to aim for a good compromise by testing with a Plus-1 wheel/tire combination. So if the car comes with 15-in, wheels, we use 15-in., as a vast majority of owners who uprated their suspension will use a Plus-1 wheel/tire upgrade.
Q. Some manufacturers use progressive rate springs, while others prefer linear springs. Which is actually better?
A. Progressive springs are problematic on the front axle of front-wheel-drive cars. If you go over a big bump with just one wheel, one side of the car stiffens up and the other remains soft, which upsets the handling as the front wheels are steering and driving. Using a linear spring in front is normally no problem as the load on this axle is fairly constant. At the rear, however, there is too much ride height change between loaded and unloaded conditions, especially in small, light cars, and so there may be no alternative to a progressive rate spring. Progressive springs also suffer from contact noise and coil binding. Our own innovation is the plastic tubes on the ends of our progressive springs. This keeps them quiet when the tighter-wound coils touch under full compression, and also prevents the paint from rubbing off and leaving bare metal, which would then corrode. Unless it is absolutely necessary, we always try to use a linear spring.
Q. How much are Eibach springs uprated over stock?
A. We have to take into account different variations in a model range, four- or six-cylinder engines and with and without air conditioning, for instance. But, in general, our products stiffen a manufacturer's suspension by about 20 percent. In fact, you lose more comfort going from 15- to 17-in, wheels than by using our springs. However, the percentage increase in stiffness is not actually interchangeable as a percentage of lost comfort. An over-soft setup which allows too much body movement is itself uncomfortable."
A. Our uprated suspension components are a good solution for normal customers who want tauter handling and a better look. People who drive their cars on track days are more demanding and need a more specialized kind of approach to uprated suspension. They would be more inclined towards adjustable setups with race-style helper springs and height adjustment.
Height-adjustable suspension really belongs on the race track. I say this because altering the ride height also requires suspension and steering geometry corrections. Ultimately, this can be a safety issue. If you let an inexperienced customer loose with easily adjustable suspension, anything could happen.
Q. There are so many variations in possible wheel/tire combinations from, say, 15to 19-in, diameters for cars like a BMW 3 Series. And, of course, different tires in the same size can produce quite different ride and handling characteristics. How do you average out a spring setting?
A. We are too small a company to test every possible combination and, in fact, major manufacturers themselves cannot get around to testing every possible combination before a car is launched. So we try to aim for a good compromise by testing with a Plus-1 wheel/tire combination. So if the car comes with 15-in, wheels, we use 15-in., as a vast majority of owners who uprated their suspension will use a Plus-1 wheel/tire upgrade.
Q. Some manufacturers use progressive rate springs, while others prefer linear springs. Which is actually better?
A. Progressive springs are problematic on the front axle of front-wheel-drive cars. If you go over a big bump with just one wheel, one side of the car stiffens up and the other remains soft, which upsets the handling as the front wheels are steering and driving. Using a linear spring in front is normally no problem as the load on this axle is fairly constant. At the rear, however, there is too much ride height change between loaded and unloaded conditions, especially in small, light cars, and so there may be no alternative to a progressive rate spring. Progressive springs also suffer from contact noise and coil binding. Our own innovation is the plastic tubes on the ends of our progressive springs. This keeps them quiet when the tighter-wound coils touch under full compression, and also prevents the paint from rubbing off and leaving bare metal, which would then corrode. Unless it is absolutely necessary, we always try to use a linear spring.
Q. How much are Eibach springs uprated over stock?
A. We have to take into account different variations in a model range, four- or six-cylinder engines and with and without air conditioning, for instance. But, in general, our products stiffen a manufacturer's suspension by about 20 percent. In fact, you lose more comfort going from 15- to 17-in, wheels than by using our springs. However, the percentage increase in stiffness is not actually interchangeable as a percentage of lost comfort. An over-soft setup which allows too much body movement is itself uncomfortable."
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,516
Likes: 1
and....
"Q. How long does it take to develop a new spring?
A. When we get a new car, we normally finish our tests of the manufacturer's setup within 3 days. Then we develop springs with different widths and lengths and spend the next two weeks testing on the same car. When we are finished, the product is signed off, TUV tested and goes into production. We do a lot of testing on public roads. Eibach is lucky to have some very badly surfaced country roads nearby which approximate the worst roads found in the UK.
Q. How much difference is there between a fast road car and a saloon car racing suspension setup?
A. The suspension on a racing car has to pick up so much more dynamic forces, you have to uprate it around 400 percent over the standard road car. On a Golf Mk 2, for instance, that would mean 80kg springs in front compared to 20kg for the O.E. units!
Q. How long does it take to develop a racing spring given the tremendous variation in setups and the time pressure of motorsport?
A. The racing department commonly uses 60mm-diameter springs with adjustable shock absorbers. We have dozens of variations in stock. If we don't have it, we can make it in a day or two. We work with F1 and F2 teams all the time as well as the rally teams of major manufacturers like Toyota and Subaru.
We only make coil springs, though, no torsion bars. We can make one or 100 a day as required. Most of the teams are based in England. An urgent order can be sent to us by fax, and by the time they send someone over to pick them up they will be ready.
Incidentally, Eibach also made the O.E. springs for Ferrari's F355 and F50 as well as the Paris-Dakar Rally Citroens and Ford RS aftermarket product."
A. When we get a new car, we normally finish our tests of the manufacturer's setup within 3 days. Then we develop springs with different widths and lengths and spend the next two weeks testing on the same car. When we are finished, the product is signed off, TUV tested and goes into production. We do a lot of testing on public roads. Eibach is lucky to have some very badly surfaced country roads nearby which approximate the worst roads found in the UK.
Q. How much difference is there between a fast road car and a saloon car racing suspension setup?
A. The suspension on a racing car has to pick up so much more dynamic forces, you have to uprate it around 400 percent over the standard road car. On a Golf Mk 2, for instance, that would mean 80kg springs in front compared to 20kg for the O.E. units!
Q. How long does it take to develop a racing spring given the tremendous variation in setups and the time pressure of motorsport?
A. The racing department commonly uses 60mm-diameter springs with adjustable shock absorbers. We have dozens of variations in stock. If we don't have it, we can make it in a day or two. We work with F1 and F2 teams all the time as well as the rally teams of major manufacturers like Toyota and Subaru.
We only make coil springs, though, no torsion bars. We can make one or 100 a day as required. Most of the teams are based in England. An urgent order can be sent to us by fax, and by the time they send someone over to pick them up they will be ready.
Incidentally, Eibach also made the O.E. springs for Ferrari's F355 and F50 as well as the Paris-Dakar Rally Citroens and Ford RS aftermarket product."
Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 4,008
Likes: 0
Dale, if you have not yet purchased, you might consider lowering springs only...
and forgo the adjustment feature. Combined with new shocks like Bilstein you get a lowered ride height and improved damping. You can choose the amount of lowering (within limits) by whose springs you purchase.
Check with Jenner. He has a good handle on this.
You lose the "coolness factor" of front coil-overs, if that is important. Of course, yellow shocks and red springs do stand out.
My $.02
Check with Jenner. He has a good handle on this.
You lose the "coolness factor" of front coil-overs, if that is important. Of course, yellow shocks and red springs do stand out.
My $.02
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,516
Likes: 1
I'm done. I may have made an error in going with the HD's....
There is a very informative thread on the next page. Apparently, the Bilstein Sports and HD's have the same valving, but a 2 inch shorter shaft. I believe thanks to that thread that the shorter shaft on the Sports would allow for greater travel in a lowered spring. I think I had it backwards. I haven't bottomed out on the HD's even with the drop hats, but I'm now switching to Sports. Thanks RasTTa and hschneTT.(It's only money.) 
If you want to stick with your stock shocks, there are HD bump stops available for cheap and the hats add on less 1 cm in ride height. 
If you want to stick with your stock shocks, there are HD bump stops available for cheap and the hats add on less 1 cm in ride height.
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The answers to your questions.
<center><img src="http://www.racing1.de/images/dtm/2001/01hockenheim/ekstroem_action_g.jpg"></center><p>This info should help.
1. To raise the vehicle you would raise the springs. This increases the distance between the lower spring perch and the spindle assy. This does not increase the preload on the. The spring is still supporting the same amount of weight. (Unless you are only raising one perch, then this would cause one corner to support more weight)
2. When you add spring rate and reduce ride height, you get a spring that is much shorter than the original version. To combat the problem of having a spring that would flop around in the spring perch when the suspension is at full droop, dead inactive coils are designed into the spring. Dead or Inactive Coils: Coils, which are in contact with adjacent coils at loaded height. Inactive coils do nothing but give the spring enough free length to stay tight in the spring perches at full rebound.
3. Height adjustment is something that can be done by anyone that the ability and knowledge to operate a couple of wrenches.. You must do the adjustments with the suspension hanging! It may also help to spray some type of lubricant on the spring bottom to allow the spring to slide more freely on the perch. It is recommended that you use Anti-Seize on the threads. It is also recommended that the alignment be checked after any major adjustments. I would consider any adjustments over 10mm major.
4. Prices vary; it would be hard for me to give you an idea on that.. sorry
I hope that this helps you out..
If you have any further questions, just call or e-mail me..
(888) 827-8881
steven@hrsprings.com
Steven Perret
G.M.
H&R Special Springs<ul><li><a href="http://hrsprings.com">H&R Special Springs LP.</a></li></ul>
1. To raise the vehicle you would raise the springs. This increases the distance between the lower spring perch and the spindle assy. This does not increase the preload on the. The spring is still supporting the same amount of weight. (Unless you are only raising one perch, then this would cause one corner to support more weight)
2. When you add spring rate and reduce ride height, you get a spring that is much shorter than the original version. To combat the problem of having a spring that would flop around in the spring perch when the suspension is at full droop, dead inactive coils are designed into the spring. Dead or Inactive Coils: Coils, which are in contact with adjacent coils at loaded height. Inactive coils do nothing but give the spring enough free length to stay tight in the spring perches at full rebound.
3. Height adjustment is something that can be done by anyone that the ability and knowledge to operate a couple of wrenches.. You must do the adjustments with the suspension hanging! It may also help to spray some type of lubricant on the spring bottom to allow the spring to slide more freely on the perch. It is recommended that you use Anti-Seize on the threads. It is also recommended that the alignment be checked after any major adjustments. I would consider any adjustments over 10mm major.
4. Prices vary; it would be hard for me to give you an idea on that.. sorry
I hope that this helps you out..
If you have any further questions, just call or e-mail me..
(888) 827-8881
steven@hrsprings.com
Steven Perret
G.M.
H&R Special Springs<ul><li><a href="http://hrsprings.com">H&R Special Springs LP.</a></li></ul>