'95 90q Upper Oil Gasket and Subframe questions
Thread Starter
Audiworld Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 19
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From: Boston, MA
'95 90q Upper Oil Gasket and Subframe questions
Hello everyone, I've been reading the forum for a while and as I dive into my first big project I wanted to ask a couple questions.
I have had a great 1995 90 Quattro for a couple years now, it has around 188k on it. I'm going to be replacing the upper oil pan gasket and because it involves removing the subframe I am going to replace that as well. Is there anything else you suggest I service while I have the subframe off? After reading around it seems the tranny mounts and ctl arm bushings are more accessible with the subframe off, are these something I should tackle?
For the new subframe I was going to purchase 034's Aluminum Subframe Bushings, http://www.034motorsport.com/chassis...s-p-21865.html
Do I need a special press or tool to install these?
If there are any replacement parts or suggestions for the whole process please speak up, I'd rather have more than enough parts than have my car sitting around in my friends shop.
I have had a great 1995 90 Quattro for a couple years now, it has around 188k on it. I'm going to be replacing the upper oil pan gasket and because it involves removing the subframe I am going to replace that as well. Is there anything else you suggest I service while I have the subframe off? After reading around it seems the tranny mounts and ctl arm bushings are more accessible with the subframe off, are these something I should tackle?
For the new subframe I was going to purchase 034's Aluminum Subframe Bushings, http://www.034motorsport.com/chassis...s-p-21865.html
Do I need a special press or tool to install these?
If there are any replacement parts or suggestions for the whole process please speak up, I'd rather have more than enough parts than have my car sitting around in my friends shop.
AudiWorld Super User
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,369
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From: Washington
YOu might need an alignment afterwords. Make sure you have a engine support on top and possibly a jack stand under the rear of the tran. Be aware of the steering rack too, you dont want to have excessive force pull it down or it will damage the steering shaft. Should probably yank all the timing belt stuff off and replace the gasket behind the oil pump. It requires the upper pan off to take it off. I need to do the same thing, my oil pump is leaking. Really if yours is a manual trans, taking off the subframe is part of trans removal, clutch time maybe...
AudiWorld Super User
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Reno, NV
you will need alignment.
i would replace:
1.subfraime mounts
2.a-arm bushing
3.trans-mounts
4. shock mounts (if you really want to get in to it)
i would recommend getting all of those parts from 034. as the regular ones will wear out within 5 years.
you will need a press to push the old bushings out, and to press the a-arm ones in.
on the oil pan, i didn't use the paper gasket, but instead used the oil pan sealer that can be purchased from aether audi or vw dealer.
front crank seal. no you dont need to take off the oil pan to replace the seal.
i would replace:
1.subfraime mounts
2.a-arm bushing
3.trans-mounts
4. shock mounts (if you really want to get in to it)
i would recommend getting all of those parts from 034. as the regular ones will wear out within 5 years.
you will need a press to push the old bushings out, and to press the a-arm ones in.
on the oil pan, i didn't use the paper gasket, but instead used the oil pan sealer that can be purchased from aether audi or vw dealer.
front crank seal. no you dont need to take off the oil pan to replace the seal.
Banned
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 8
From: Central Idaho
A new subframe for the 90Q is NLA, BTDT. I had to find a used one of which only 3 were available across the USA. Q and FWD are different!
Even if you could buy the OEM subframe it was around $900, dealer only.
The bushings needs to be pressed in with the right tools. The bolts and washers should be replaced.
There is always a slight chance if you are in an area with salt the bolts can break the backing nut which is inside the frame, this would prompt cutting into your frame and welding new nuts on.
If your sub is not rusted why are you replacing it? They were stamped steel made in France and rusted through fairly easy, this is what prompted me to have to replace mine in May.
I had a 35 year Audi master mechanic replace my upper/lower pan gaskets this past spring, he did not need to touch the sub.
He did notice while there some perforation and relayed his safety concern to me that I should start looking for a better example.
Even if you could buy the OEM subframe it was around $900, dealer only.
The bushings needs to be pressed in with the right tools. The bolts and washers should be replaced.
There is always a slight chance if you are in an area with salt the bolts can break the backing nut which is inside the frame, this would prompt cutting into your frame and welding new nuts on.
If your sub is not rusted why are you replacing it? They were stamped steel made in France and rusted through fairly easy, this is what prompted me to have to replace mine in May.
I had a 35 year Audi master mechanic replace my upper/lower pan gaskets this past spring, he did not need to touch the sub.
He did notice while there some perforation and relayed his safety concern to me that I should start looking for a better example.
AudiWorld Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 301
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From: Irwin, PA
I had to replace my subframe a couple months ago because of rust. Here's what I learned: Some subframes used 10mm bolts and some used 12mm bolts to mount to the body. My 95 Q used 12mm and I'll bet yours does, too. The solid bushings from 034 are drilled for 10mm bolts, so you must call them and request the new 12mm bolts and have them redrill the aluminum bushings. BTW, they are a great value and there is no degrading of the ride quality. You don't need to press them in, but you will have to press out the OEM bonded rubber ones. You MUST used new mounting bolts, as they are designed to stretch.
Replace the lower control arm bushings, and remember not to tighten them up until you have the suspension compressed to normal ride height.
The front of the engine mounts to the body, but you have to support the rear at the transmission. You might as well replace the transmission mounts while you are there. They are fairly cheap. Try to find new bolts for those, too.
I would recommend first dropping the ball joints from the bottom of the struts, then unbolting the control arms from the subframe. Then they are off and out of the way. You can leave the struts hang if you are not replacing any components. Remove the trans mounts from the subframe to give you more wiggle room to get the subframe around the exhaust pipes.
Have fun,
Dave
Replace the lower control arm bushings, and remember not to tighten them up until you have the suspension compressed to normal ride height.
The front of the engine mounts to the body, but you have to support the rear at the transmission. You might as well replace the transmission mounts while you are there. They are fairly cheap. Try to find new bolts for those, too.
I would recommend first dropping the ball joints from the bottom of the struts, then unbolting the control arms from the subframe. Then they are off and out of the way. You can leave the struts hang if you are not replacing any components. Remove the trans mounts from the subframe to give you more wiggle room to get the subframe around the exhaust pipes.
Have fun,
Dave
Thread Starter
Audiworld Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 19
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From: Boston, MA
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Here's some answered to some suggestions/concerns.
1) I was planning on doing an alignment after anyway, a couple tires are wearing oddly.
2) I've got a hole and a bunch of rust on my subframe so I'm getting a used subframe from Force 5 Automotive in NH. They are a VAG junkyard, I've gotten alot of parts for my 90q from them.
http://www.force5auto.com/
3) It seemed on 034's website that they had remedied the 12mm bolt issue, I made sure to get the ones listed for B4 with 12mm bolts.
I'm doing this with a VW/Audi mechanic and he doesn't want to get into all the bushings at once so it looks like I'll just be getting a new subframe with aluminum bushings and fix my oil leak.
1) I was planning on doing an alignment after anyway, a couple tires are wearing oddly.
2) I've got a hole and a bunch of rust on my subframe so I'm getting a used subframe from Force 5 Automotive in NH. They are a VAG junkyard, I've gotten alot of parts for my 90q from them.
http://www.force5auto.com/
3) It seemed on 034's website that they had remedied the 12mm bolt issue, I made sure to get the ones listed for B4 with 12mm bolts.
I'm doing this with a VW/Audi mechanic and he doesn't want to get into all the bushings at once so it looks like I'll just be getting a new subframe with aluminum bushings and fix my oil leak.
Thread Starter
Audiworld Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 19
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From: Boston, MA
So I got my subframe yesterday, it looks great, they sent me the whole assembly with the control arms and sway bar, good bye rust.
I do have a concern though. The frame appears to be an exact copy of the frame on my car except for the addition of a piece of metal on each side, see pic 2. You can see how in the second pic there is the flat seam from the stamped steel, this seam continues inside the additional steel that is welded on. This piece appears to be re-enforcing where the c-arm attaches at the subframe.
If anyone has access to ETKA could you look the part number up to make sure it will work for my '95 90 Quattro. It appears to be Part# 3A0 199 315 H.
I do have a concern though. The frame appears to be an exact copy of the frame on my car except for the addition of a piece of metal on each side, see pic 2. You can see how in the second pic there is the flat seam from the stamped steel, this seam continues inside the additional steel that is welded on. This piece appears to be re-enforcing where the c-arm attaches at the subframe.
If anyone has access to ETKA could you look the part number up to make sure it will work for my '95 90 Quattro. It appears to be Part# 3A0 199 315 H.
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Joe Kucinski
AudiWorld Member
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Force5auto sent that to you? Interesting.
8A0 199 313 BC is the number for Quattro 1993-95
8A0 199 313 BA is the number for auto FWD 93-95
I just went through the subframe issue not long ago. I would look to see if there is a number stamped into the metal somewhere on that gem. This is audi, don't forget...and what I am seeing doesn't look right... but that doesn't mean it won't work. In fact it may be stiffer than what was there originally.
The jury is out on this one.
I've heard some good things about Force5--maybe he is onto an alternative to the extremely limited sources for replacement subframes for our cars. Maybe Chris can chime in here and divulge his secrets.
That said, if you don't drop the passenger side CAT, that subframe is going to be a real bitch getting in there. It can be done, after 30 minutes of juggling the engine up, down, manuevering and what not. Also, don't preinstall the tranny mounts if you don't take the CAT out.
The 93 subframe is the same, but the bushings may be different. Somewhere in mid-93 they went from 10mm to 12mm bolts. There is a VIN cutoff for that switcheroo. If you need it I can go get it. You don't have to press out the old bushings. Sharp razor knife off one if the rubber ends and a hit with a good hammer will pop er right out.
8A0 199 313 BC is the number for Quattro 1993-95
8A0 199 313 BA is the number for auto FWD 93-95
I just went through the subframe issue not long ago. I would look to see if there is a number stamped into the metal somewhere on that gem. This is audi, don't forget...and what I am seeing doesn't look right... but that doesn't mean it won't work. In fact it may be stiffer than what was there originally.
The jury is out on this one.
I've heard some good things about Force5--maybe he is onto an alternative to the extremely limited sources for replacement subframes for our cars. Maybe Chris can chime in here and divulge his secrets.
That said, if you don't drop the passenger side CAT, that subframe is going to be a real bitch getting in there. It can be done, after 30 minutes of juggling the engine up, down, manuevering and what not. Also, don't preinstall the tranny mounts if you don't take the CAT out.
The 93 subframe is the same, but the bushings may be different. Somewhere in mid-93 they went from 10mm to 12mm bolts. There is a VIN cutoff for that switcheroo. If you need it I can go get it. You don't have to press out the old bushings. Sharp razor knife off one if the rubber ends and a hit with a good hammer will pop er right out.
Thread Starter
Audiworld Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
merton1973- Thanks for looking that up, hopefully I can figure out compatibility.
1993audi90- What am I looking for in a stamped number? Is it a part number or a different identification number? I guess the easiest way to figure this out is to ask Force5. My VIN is WAUCA88C1SA075842 if you can look that up I would appreciate it.
Thanks for the info about removing the passenger cat.
1993audi90- What am I looking for in a stamped number? Is it a part number or a different identification number? I guess the easiest way to figure this out is to ask Force5. My VIN is WAUCA88C1SA075842 if you can look that up I would appreciate it.
Thanks for the info about removing the passenger cat.