racing and Rolex GT or SWC.


Your post was:

"That's a huge gamble. Spend $25,000+ for a weekend and get crashed into on your out lap by some dentist or accountant.

For $25,000 you can campaign a top tier rental in bmwcca or pca racing for a whole season (though you can still get taken out by a dentist)."


SWC and Rolex have tv time, which makes the difference huge. Gatorade, EMC2, Dell, Recaro and other top companies all sponsor in GT, and do so as there is TV time.

99.99999% of club racing is not on TV, and if it is, it has very little viewership.

Sponsors require tv time.

As for competitiveness, sure, there is a lot in club racing. There is also a huge disparity in speed from first to last in each race, that doesn't exist in 95% of pro racing, bar car trouble.

Drvers like Andy Lally, Randy Pobst, Dirk Werner, Patrick Huissman, Richard Westbrook, Michael Galati, Tommy Archer, Max Papis, and others are not running around in club racing either.

The prices are relative, as well. Take a $200K race car and tear up the front end, pay $20K. Take a $10K car, pay $1K or similar.

Lastly, most people in pro racing renting rides are trying to be recognized and become paid pros. This happens about .00001% of the time out of club racing, so there money spent to race in a pro series as a gentleman racer is an investment to most, and an investment with a return and sponsor potential.

Many GT and TC teams have $200K in sponsorship, some way more. Same in both series. Manufacturers are involved as well (Mazda, Cadillac, Porsche, Lexus, Ford, etc). Do you know any club racers with that level of sponsorship? Know any factory club teams?

Rolex and SWC is a HUGE step above club racing. The fees to race alone are higher than a season of tires in club racing, and the travel cost is higher than most club teams, including car and everything.

Gamble, yes. But racers are gamblers. Some driver race cars, some want to become (or already are) race car driver.

MIke S

 

That'd be Derek Bell in the VIR 13-hour, but yea mostly it's just us riff-raff.

I don't think Krisko was saying that club and Rolex are comparable. I think he was just saying that you can get great racing for a fraction of the price in a club context.

And also that wherever you race, you have to watch our for dentists :-)

The couple of 'gentleman racers' I know harbor no desire to be paid drivers. They have good careers and make a lot of dough, certainly more than the paid drivers in Rolex GT. It's more that they want to test themselves at a very high level of motorsports.

 

20-30 x more high end drivers in it than any club race.

There simply is no comparison.

As for highly paid drivers in Rolex, Steve Johnson is worth $500 million plus and was paid this past race.

Don Bell of Bell Micro has been a paid driver in his career, and is worth more than Johnson.

JC France ring a bell? Will one day inherit the NASCAR fortune.

You are also forgetting that most pro drivers in GT run elsewhere, making GT, SWC, etc part of their income.

I am sure Krisko would quit what he is doing if he could get paid $250,000 to drive a race car each year. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet most would.

Top SWC and Rolex GT series drivers are making $250,000-$500,000 per year with all income included.

Cheers,

Mike S

 

As I said, they're making a lot more than the Rolex GT drivers, but I appreciate you providing the numbers that confirm it. But on a more cosmic level, you're just kinda missing the point. When you're a successful, say, venture capitalist or neurosurgeon, you don't actually want to 'quit your job' (although you might joke about it at the track) and $500K represents a big pay cut. Driving Rolex is about challenging yourself and trying to excel in your hobby.

Other guys get into wine, but that doesn't mean they wish they were the sommelier at Per Se.

 

I said specifically that Don Bell, owner of Bell Micro Products, as well as Steve Johnson, who is supposedly worth $700 mil are paid racers. Steve is a venture capitalist and sold all his coal mines last year for $380 million. He also played for the Dallas Cowboys for years (as well as other NFL teams).

JC France is worth a few billion.

Both are on top 500 wealthiest lists.

Your guys on those lists?

I've given concrete examples, twice. Time for you to do the same. "I knog guys...." is not enough, if you are going to play tit-for-tat as to the situation, honestly.

As for the driver salaries, yes, 99% of rent-a-racers make more than any pro driver. Many make more than Schumacher as well. That's the only way they can afford to rent cars for $300-$2.5mil per year.

Did you honestly read my note?


Mike S

 

I honestly consider SWC and GAC to be 'near' pro racing. Sure, you've got Angellleli and Pilgrim and many others but you've also got some really crappy drivers who just happen to have a little money. Honestly, some of the worst driving I've seen is in SWC and GAC and I'm including my club racing experience...some real bush league moves out there.

While 90% of pca/bmwcca club racing is 'open mic night', there are some pretty well built cars and good drivers out there too. Competition among the top cars is fierce while keeping your paint job intact (usually).

I've been offered a ride or two in GAC (me paying of course) and I've seriously considered it. I couldn't justify the monies paid and exposure to risk vs. the fun factor. Of course that's the economic reality for me...if I were a dentist perhaps I'd go GAC racing and try to crash somebody on their outlap.

Why was the other post deleted?

 

I know that is just the way of the world but it takes away from the credibility.

 

Every single series has a huge amount of paying drivers.

F1 is estimated (by Racer) at 45% paying, with even test drivers paying.

Champ car is over 50% (hell, half the cars don't have sponsorship or just minor sponsorship).

IRL is over 60% (their stat from last year).

ALMS is over 60%.

Rolex GT is about 65%, by my calculation. DP is about about 45%. Koni Cup is about 95%! Touring, 99%.

Speed World Challenge is over 50%.

- Did you realize that series champion Aschenbach was paying last year, and is paying for his Cadillac ride this year?

- Marcel Thiemann paid for Job in ALMS last year as well!



Over 50% of racers in the pro world are paying, regardless of series.

Not bad vs 99.9% of club racers who are paying their own way.

If you race in PCA, and race a Cup car, you have the following expenses, roughlyL:

- Travel: trailer to/from race, lodging, etc - $1,500

- Tires: Three sets per weekend to be competitive, $7500

- Fuel for race car - $500-800

- Brake pads and other consumables: $600-800

- Cost to run engine per hour - $1000 or $5000 per weekend.


Add it all up, and a PCA Cup Car racer will be paying about $12,000-$18,000 per race, before ANY damage.

So yah, arrive and drive for $18-$24K per race in Rolex GT, with TV time, sponsorship, and most importantly, the ability to put yourself up against good talent for you and OTHERS to see where you stand.

I put $25,000-$50,000 in minor sponsorship on even my lowest level GT clients cars. Can't do that in club racing, as TV is king. No lure to bring sponsors (and keep them) at a club race.

In the end, some people are race car drivers and some people drive race cars. If a driver wants to make it, the longer they sit in club racing, they longer they delay their career.

Mike S

 

And yeah, I do have a minor credibility problem with all the racing series you mentioned. Don't get me wrong, I watch all of them on tv and live when I can but I don't give a lot of credibility to some of them.

I know racers buy rides in almost every pro series except Nextel Cup but for whatever reason I don't respect SWC and GAC in particular as true pro racing. I think it's because of the SWC racers I've met/known, the racing I've watched and the fact that a goober like me has been offered GAC rides. All of that said, SWC and GAC is fun to watch for both the backmarkers that crash out and the real pro racing that goes on at the front.

And I completely agree with you that young talented racers are wasting their time if they stay too long in club racing. It's a good place to gauge personal talent and feel a racing career out but you certainly don't want to languish there if you can make it at the next level.

 

GAC tends to be a little more chaotic then SWC. Running up to 90 car fields with multiple drivers per car really adds to that chaos. SWC being one driver per car tends to weed out people who really should not be out there. Sure there are maybe 5 to 7 cars that run 2 to 5 seconds slower a lap but once you get above 15 in SWC you are in some serious company. Just look at Touring Cars times from just about any race. The top ten if not 15 drivers are all with in about second of each other and sometimes much closer, GT is spread out a little more though. Some of the closest, hardest fought and exciting racing is in SPEED WC, IMO. This last season even though Acura and Porsche won both titles the actual competition was spectacular.

Over the past few years the level of car set up, driver quality and speed has increased dramatically. In 2003 Paul Lambert set the track record at Mid Ohio and 3 years later Freddy Baker did to the tune of about 4 seconds faster. That is a huge difference. Put some real tires on these cars and there is another 2 to 4 seconds more. SWC cars use to be nowhere near the level of BTCC but theses days I would say they are on par as SWC cars tend to run a little more power but also weigh a littler more. Just look at the times Auberlen, who a spectacular driver is putting down in an M3 with real tires, they are in most cases a second slower the SWC TC. Yes, I know the rules allow for the SWCTC to be more technically advance but when a 4 door 4 cylinder sedans is faster then a Porsche or an M3 race car, it should tell you something about the level of car set up in SWC.

Just look at some of the technical partners that are in the paddock of WC, not too mention the amount of teams with factory backing or involvement on some level. I am not saying GAC is not good racing because it is, I just don't think it is the level of SWC.