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Oil analysis TDI @ 625km

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Old 01-14-2014, 02:56 PM   #1
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Default Oil analysis TDI @ 625km

Hello,

I've decided to do two voluntary oil changes before 2,000km on my new TDI. The first oil change was performed at 625km. The second will be performed at 2,000km.

A little background on the oil. I found out that the car comes from the factory with the same type of oil as the dealer uses (5w40 synthetic). The only difference is that the factory oil doesn't have "detergents" and Castrol 5w40 has them. The sample was taken by the dealer during the oil change. I'm not sure at what point did they take the oil sample (in the beginning, midstream, at the end).

Oil analysis point out that the oil looks closer to 0w30 properties. If anyone can chime in what type of oil the diesels are coming from the factory, that would be great. Some diesel dilution in the oil is occurring, but this could be due to some blow by during break in.

Any thoughts are welcome.
Thanks.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:22 PM   #2
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I found out that the car comes from the factory with the same type of oil as the dealer uses (5w40 synthetic). The only difference is that the factory oil doesn't have "detergents" and Castrol 5w40 has them.
By any chance did the dealer selling you Castrol 5W40 tell you this?

I believe my C5 owner's manual specified the factory fill oil as a "high quality 0W30" or the like, and an admonition that the end user was not to change it prior to first scheduled maintenance.
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:09 PM   #3
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That's what the dealer told me. The service manager for that matter. Not sure what oil the car came with from the factory, that's what I posted here.

Why no changing the oil before the first (8,000km)? I've done some research into breaking procedures and there is a consensus that oil should be changed at least one time before 2,000km. I've chosen to do this twice to closely monitor the amounts of suspended particles in the oil.
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:59 PM   #4
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I'm going to side with Richard and say you've changed out the oil far too early. VAG used to use a "break in" oil...see reference below. Modern mfg techniques have changed so much, who knows what they're doing today. However, the fact you found the oil to have viscosity similar to a xW30 coincides with what others have found when sampling this nearly-virgin oil...it's very thin.

Note standard TL 521 67. It references "factory fill, light running":

Click the image to open in full size.


Further down that same list you'll see a spec still applicable to older cars today, VAG 505.00. It's referenced as "service engine oil".

Personally, I would not have changed that oil 'til I was much closer to the initial recommended drain interval. It's entirely possible they're using a low-vis oil to accelerate the break-in process given their mfg techniques.

I've seen someone meaure cylinder pressures on a TDI from Day 1. It took nearly 50,000 miles for the car to hit its peak cylinder pressures....these cars take a lot of miles to really get broken-in.

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Old 01-14-2014, 06:33 PM   #5
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That's what the dealer told me. The service manager for that matter. Not sure what oil the car came with from the factory, that's what I posted here.
My first (short-lived relationship) Service Advisor told me the same B.S. 14 years ago, except his story was 20W50 or whatever other crap they had on hand back then. Check your owner's manual. Mine says 0W30 and I showed it to him as I explained why I was providing my own M1 0W30 vs the back-then-included-in-purchase-price sludge the dealer was using.

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Why no changing the oil before the first (8,000km)? I've done some research into breaking procedures and there is a consensus that oil should be changed at least one time before 2,000km. I've chosen to do this twice to closely monitor the amounts of suspended particles in the oil.
My experience is with the 2.7T engine, so I'll start with the huge caveat that the current TDI might be different - but I suspect not. Search here for "break-in oil" or the like and sit down for a day of reading - my recollection is that most folks who had high oil consumption later in life had changed out the factory fill oil early.

I know a lot of conventional wisdom was "change early, change often" but even back in 2000 it was clear that then-modern German engines were built tight enough to require different break-in procedures. I had to literally grit my teeth and hold myself back from doing a 1000mi change and stick it out for 5000mi 'til first service.... But 113,000 miles later my engine has not exhibited any signs of oil consumption (now LEAKAGE is another story ).

I didn't mean to re-open the first change debate, just to point out that you seemed to be overlooking the data in front of you: namely your oil analysis is consistent with 0W30 not the dealer B.S., so IMNSHO you need to really question what your dealer is telling you.

FWIW, I may be mistaken on the manual telling me not to change our the factory fill oil, perhaps it was my departed Audi master tech. Regardless it was the consensus here on AW back in 2000 for the 2.7T, but it's a near-religious argument.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:47 AM   #6
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What was your reason for changing the oil at 625 km and then 2000?
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:33 PM   #7
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My reasoning for changing the oil twice before 2,000km is to get rid of the suspended metal particles in the oil that can potentially harm the rod bearings, cylinder walls, and piston rings.

Richard. I don't get the benefit of keeping the same oil until 5,000mi. Like you said, every conventional wisdom would recommend this. Also, is there a direct correlation of burning oil to doing initial oil change early? Might be just a coincident? or it might be the fact that you've taken care of your 113,000mile motor without much abuse during cold starts etc.

I've talked to several mechanics and they all suggest to change the oil after break in period (~2,000km). If you can shed some light on this it would be great.

Thanks
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #8
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My reasoning for changing the oil twice before 2,000km is to get rid of the suspended metal particles in the oil that can potentially harm the rod bearings, cylinder walls, and piston rings.
Why isn't your oil filter capturing these particles?
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:17 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Superfly_A6 View Post
My reasoning for changing the oil twice before 2,000km is to get rid of the suspended metal particles in the oil that can potentially harm the rod bearings, cylinder walls, and piston rings.

Richard. I don't get the benefit of keeping the same oil until 5,000mi. Like you said, every conventional wisdom would recommend this. Also, is there a direct correlation of burning oil to doing initial oil change early? Might be just a coincident? or it might be the fact that you've taken care of your 113,000mile motor without much abuse during cold starts etc.

I've talked to several mechanics and they all suggest to change the oil after break in period (~2,000km). If you can shed some light on this it would be great.
There's a ton of great info here on Audiworld, make you own decision on the correlation. My experience is posted just to say that as one who followed the breakin and first oil change and is not having excessive consumption. What I remember of these decade-old discussions is that of the people complaining of excessive consumption, many/most had changed early. That doesn't mean that everyone who changed early had problems, just that it appeared that there was a strong correlation between having problems and having changed early.

One theory is that modern machining tolerances are so tight that rings *NEED* those suspended metal particles to seat properly. I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer, so I'm staying mostly out of that. Search the forums, read the postings, make your own decision - just make it informed, not based on 20-30yo conventional wisdom. YMMV, professional driver on closed course, etc, etc, etc.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:29 PM   #10
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Well said. Add another C5 (mine) to the list of those who followed the AOA recommended initial oil change intervals. And I can affirmatively say that at 198,000 miles there have been ZERO oil consumption issues, to include no issues with the K03 turbos.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:07 PM   #11
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These engine break-in/"when to change oil" threads come up regularly on all of the AudiWorld forums and elsewhere. I've always felt that Audi has spent huge amounts of money for research and years of experience, consequently, they really ought to know how best to break in and maintain their engines for best performance and longevity. So, for me, over 13 years and 4 Audis, the manf. manuals trump any other "recommendations". It's worked out well so far.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:34 PM   #12
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These engine break-in/"when to change oil" threads come up regularly on all of the AudiWorld forums and elsewhere. I've always felt that Audi has spent huge amounts of money for research and years of experience, consequently, they really ought to know how best to break in and maintain their engines for best performance and longevity. So, for me, over 13 years and 4 Audis, the manf. manuals trump any other "recommendations". It's worked out well so far.
This is mostly true...but tell that to all the 1.8T and 2.0T owners who followed their maintenance and were rewarded with low oil pressure sludge and junk engines before 100k miles. Although plenty of rebuilt engines go on in life fine without any special break in oil. I would think the OP is fine just drive it.
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:21 PM   #13
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This is mostly true...but tell that to all the 1.8T and 2.0T owners who followed their maintenance and were rewarded with low oil pressure sludge and junk engines before 100k miles.
For those affected, was that due to following Audi's break-in recommendations or a defect in design that would have occurred regardless? I've not seen empirical data evidence either way. In any case, I'm not saying Audi is infallible, just that following Audi's recommendations vs. that of all the conflicting internet advice is more likely to provide the best overall results for the majority of owners.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:42 AM   #14
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You'd be hearing it by now on the Q7 since 2009. It's not an issue.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:25 AM   #15
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Default VW 507.00 oils for TDI thus a 5W30 oil!

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Originally Posted by Superfly_A6 View Post

Oil analysis point out that the oil looks closer to 0w30 properties.
Any thoughts are welcome.
Thanks.
VW specifies 507.00 spec oils for the TDI. This is a 5W30 oil. Google VW 507.000 and you will get lots of these 5W 30 approved oils.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:49 AM   #16
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Perl, that's a good point. FWIW, all 507.00 oils are 5W30 but tend to be a "thicker".
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:53 AM   #17
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Is 507.00 synthetic? I take my pickup to a commercial truck shop, and they only use a diesel-only oil which is dinosaur oil.

I've seen synthetic diesel-only oil at Pep Boys, but never use it. I wonder if it's similar to 507.00. Same viscosity rating.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:13 AM   #18
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Is 507.00 synthetic? I take my pickup to a commercial truck shop, and they only use a diesel-only oil which is dinosaur oil.

I've seen synthetic diesel-only oil at Pep Boys, but never use it. I wonder if it's similar to 507.00. Same viscosity rating.
All 507.00 oils are going to be some form of "synthetic". This VAG spec could never be met with dino-oil base stock.

Yes, Pep Boys sells a compliant 504/507 oil from Mobil. It's approaching $13/L.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Richard Solomon View Post
There's a ton of great info here on Audiworld, make you own decision on the correlation. My experience is posted just to say that as one who followed the breakin and first oil change and is not having excessive consumption. What I remember of these decade-old discussions is that of the people complaining of excessive consumption, many/most had changed early. That doesn't mean that everyone who changed early had problems, just that it appeared that there was a strong correlation between having problems and having changed early.

One theory is that modern machining tolerances are so tight that rings *NEED* those suspended metal particles to seat properly. I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer, so I'm staying mostly out of that. Search the forums, read the postings, make your own decision - just make it informed, not based on 20-30yo conventional wisdom. YMMV, professional driver on closed course, etc, etc, etc.
I also did an early oil change at 1000 miles and my logic was to remove the suspended particles so that they would not imbed themselves or scar bearing surfaces. I do not see how shavings will help the rings seat properly. My thinking on this subject would be that rings seating properly would be a directly related to cylinder pressures and proper progressive loading of the engine during initial run in. Do not idle your engine or hold constant speed/rpm for xxxx amount of miles/hours. This is easier to control with a manual transmission but is still fairly easy to do with the automatic. I further question the correlation between early oil change and oil consumption due to other factors such as "babying" the engine that may not have been taken into account.
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:17 AM   #20
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Default Oil type as per manual

So I've been to the dealer one more time. They have confirmed that they used 5w40 Castrol Synthec (sp) oil in my oil change. When talking to the service manager he also confirmed that he has heard of higher consumption for people that have changed the oil early. Now, when he says higher consumption, he means more than usual. He said that the DI engines burn oil, and this is normal.

When asking him where are these assumptions (of higher consumption if changing oil early) come from he said its not as much with ring seating as with the non-detergent oil taking away the laser etched piston skirt something blah blah blah .... I didn't fully get what he was saying and he said the broken English of the engineer who explained this to him didn't help either. I'm not sure that leaving the oil with metal particles from initial break in is beneficial to break in. Only long term results will tell.

In any case, the oil change is done and I am not worried about it. My intention is to still do another oil change at 2,000-2,500, perform the oil analysis and then stick to Audi intervals of ~ 8,000km or so.

FYI, The picture is straight from the manual and it shows acceptable oil viscosity for diesels.
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:17 AM
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