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CRAP! Camshaft moved?! Possible to figure out TDC again?!

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Old 01-14-2014, 08:03 PM   #1
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Default CRAP! Camshaft moved?! Possible to figure out TDC again?!

So I followed the Blauparts directions PERFECTLY but either one of the cams moved when I was CAREFULLY pulling off the belt OR it moved when I was inserting the tool (which was a little tricky, I almost thought the 3 peice tool was bent but then it finally slid on after a bit of force). I'm no longer confident that one didn't move slightly, 10 to 20 degrees maybe? Everything looked dead center when I started the job. Both large holes in the sprocket were pointing toward the center and I inserted the crank lock pin... The directions didn't say to make any marks and I figured I was ok since I got all the rented tools. I'm doing the valve cover gasket... Will there be any way to verify it's TDC when I pull the cover off? Will I be able to double check or ensure it before I put things together? Did I just completely screw this whole job over?? :-/

I thought I was doing everything perfect and read their directions and each step many times before preceding...

Audi a6 2.7t...
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:53 PM   #2
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@#&!!! I was using the 3 prong sprocket puller tool and VERY slowly turning the screw to apply pressure and the WHOLE cam sprocket just suddenly lurched a full quarter of a turn!!! HOW THE HELL did that happen!? I took like 10 minutes to line the puller up so all three prongs were latching on (which was NOT easy) and then very slowly started turning the screw. The screw was dead center on the bolt that was in the sprocket (broke free when the cam lock bar was on and then loosened by hand about four turns)!! Now I can feel some force on the sprocket, it will not easily rotate back to the position where the large hole is pointing level towards the center of the engine. I haven't forced it at all... did I just completely destroy my car?? Just spent $5000 on college tuition and $1000 on parts from Blauparts. If I just destroyed my car it looks like I'll be walking everywhere for the next year or so....

I followed these instructions perfectly, I was so gently with everything, it's taken me about four days just to get to this point because I double and triple read each step and made sure to skip nothing and that everything was in place properly. How did this get screwed up so bad?! If this puller is applying rotational force to the sprocket WHY isn't there a way to do it with the cam lock bar still on?! This has me so completely beat and depressed. Is there any coming back from this?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:16 AM   #3
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Put the lower toothed belt cover in place (the one that sits behind the idler pulley) and the idler pulley. The TDC marks are a line on the idler pulley and a line on the cover that line up at the one o'clock position. Those lined up then you can insert the crank lock pin.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:00 AM   #4
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This is minor. Cams moving a few degrees is common due to forces exerted by the valve springs. You have to set cam timing at the end anyway.
Don't sweat it. Use the locking bar to rotate the cam back into alignment. Easy.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:20 AM   #5
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I was using the 3 prong sprocket puller tool and VERY slowly turning the screw to apply pressure and the WHOLE cam sprocket just suddenly lurched a full quarter of a turn!!!
I had the same panic when it happened to me. Don't worry about it. The cams are under valve spring tension so, when the belt is not there with sprockets tight on cams, they'll move when you disturb it even slightly.

Simple thing is to put the diamond plate back on and use the cam locking bar to turn. Alignment of cam notches with bearing cap arrow marks is the most important thing (along with crankshaft locked at tdc). Then you are good to go.

I asked many related questions and they might help you. Do an advanced search for "Cam" and user as "tester123".

4Driver4 is right. Actually, he is the one who suggested this when I was working on my car... Thanks to you buddy!
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:33 AM   #6
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I had the same panic when it happened to me. Don't worry about it. The cams are under valve spring tension so, when the belt is not there with sprockets tight on cams, they'll move when you disturb it even slightly.

Simple thing is to put the diamond plate back on and use the cam locking bar to turn. Alignment of cam notches with bearing cap arrow marks is the most important thing (along with crankshaft locked at tdc). Then you are good to go.

I asked many related questions and they might help you. Do an advanced search for "Cam" and user as "tester123".

4Driver4 is right. Actually, he is the one who suggested this when I was working on my car... Thanks to you buddy!

Is there a trick to using the 3 pronged puller to get it lined up on the center of that bolt? I feel like the little metal thing that has the small and large hole was getting in the way and causing it to not center with the bolt. It took a long time to try and hold it and slowly hand screw it till it got centered and then use a ratchet to start to turn the screw more and pow, the whole sprocket jumped like that. Also, can I pull the sprocket loose WITH the cam lock bar in place so it doesn't turn?

The sprocket feels like it has some tension now too. When I try to turn it counterclockwise back to its proper position I'm getting what feels like some spring resistance... Should I need to use a bit of force to tuen it back? Is it safe to do?

Finally. The crank lock pin has been in this whole time.
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:10 AM   #7
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Is there a trick to using the 3 pronged puller to get it lined up on the center of that bolt?
I'm not a fan of the puller. I usually unscrew the bolt a few turns (2 or 3) then strike it with a hammer as if I am trying to drive it back in. This pops off the sprocket.

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I feel like the little metal thing that has the small and large hole was getting in the way and causing it to not center with the bolt.
If you are using the puller and it is in the way, take the bolt out, remove the alignment plate (the wing thing) and then put the bolt back in.

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Also, can I pull the sprocket loose WITH the cam lock bar in place so it doesn't turn?
You can, but you probably don't need to.

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The sprocket feels like it has some tension now too. When I try to turn it counterclockwise back to its proper position I'm getting what feels like some spring resistance... Should I need to use a bit of force to tuen it back? Is it safe to do?
You are fighting valve spring tension. That's what made it turn in the first place. Leave it alone until you need to turn it back to align the belt.

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Finally. The crank lock pin has been in this whole time.
Good.

I hope you are planning on doing all the cam related seals as part of this job. If you skip things like the cam adjuster seals, you'll be sorry later.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:21 AM   #8
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This Video might give you some insight (not the same engine, still...)
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:33 AM   #9
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If you are up to here it doesn't make sense not to do the Cam seals, End caps and chain tensioner gaskets + Valley (half-moon) seals. Yeah a little more work but, you'll be glad you did them unless they are done recently or you look forward eagerly towards the next tear down. Just my opinion...

Be warned that removing tensioner requires removing cam bearing caps and there is a good chance the chain links may skip. It's not a big deal, you can always count the links and put it back. The notches on CAMS have to match the Arrow markings on bearing caps. There are good write-ups about this. Some have done it without pulling the cams out. I tried but it was more hassle than worth so, I pulled them off. Plus, I wanted to clean everything thoroughly before the new gaskets and seals go in... it's up to you. Just know that the Cam timing has to be perfect if you go this route.

FYI, each head is independent of its own timing - what I mean by that is the exhaust and intake cams have to be aligned so, you work on one head at a time. Make sure that is aligned properly and work on next. Finally, the belt ties the timing of heads and crankshaft together. Makes sense?
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:45 AM   #10
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Here is a previous post that might help:
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...5#post24523295
from this thread:
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2858374
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:45 AM   #11
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If you are up to here it doesn't make sense not to do the Cam seals, End caps and chain tensioner gaskets + Valley (half-moon) seals. Yeah a little more work but, you'll be glad you did them unless they are done recently or you look forward eagerly towards the next tear down. Just my opinion...

Be warned that removing tensioner requires removing cam bearing caps and there is a good chance the chain links may skip. It's not a big deal, you can always count the links and put it back. The notches on CAMS have to match the Arrow markings on bearing caps. There are good write-ups about this. Some have done it without pulling the cams out. I tried but it was more hassle than worth so, I pulled them off. Plus, I wanted to clean everything thoroughly before the new gaskets and seals go in... it's up to you. Just know that the Cam timing has to be perfect if you go this route.

FYI, each head is independent of its own timing - what I mean by that is the exhaust and intake cams have to be aligned so, you work on one head at a time. Make sure that is aligned properly and work on next. Finally, the belt ties the timing of heads and crankshaft together. Makes sense?

Ya, I got that full kit and more Blauparts instructions... Which don't seem as good as their timing belt instructions and have less pictures... I wish ECS had instructions & someone had a copy. They seem to have AMAZING timing belt instructions with GREAT pictures... I probably should have used them and tossed Blau's but I didn't want to mix anything up...

I take pictures of everything as I remove the head and count the chain links and such. Hopefully I'll be able to get it back together by reading your previous posts but if you guys could keep an eye out for another panicked post by me that would give me some peace of mind while doing this. Lol
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:49 AM   #12
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Have you looked in the tech section of this website? There is a ton of information there on both timing belts and seals.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:12 AM   #13
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Have you looked in the tech section of this website? There is a ton of information there on both timing belts and seals.
I have yes, but a couple a ran across suggested that you didn't need to use lock bars and stuff so I decided to stick with the (not so in depth) guide that blauparts shipped since I got their full tool rental too. The tech guides here totally have helped me ID the location of the parts and stuff though and I'll probably read up on a couple about replacing all the seals and gasket before I go try some more work on the car today...

ECS just has a picture for like every step with wonderful arrows pointing to all the numbered parts and stuff. Wish I could find one like that for this part of the job :P
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:16 PM   #14
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ECS just has a picture for like every step with wonderful arrows pointing to all the numbered parts and stuff. Wish I could find one like that for this part of the job :P
Oh will you just quit it and get the show on the road (literally )... Forget those pictures. Just reach into that "common-sense" box and keep going. You got the manual(?), blauparts instructions AND, the invaluable help from all of us here! Really, if you still having trouble, buy me a flight ticket and couple lap dances at your local strip joint(decent one plz), I'll just come, and do it!
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:41 PM   #15
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Oh will you just quit it and get the show on the road (literally )... Forget those pictures. Just reach into that "common-sense" box and keep going. You got the manual(?), blauparts instructions AND, the invaluable help from all of us here! Really, if you still having trouble, buy me a flight ticket and couple lap dances at your local strip joint(decent one plz), I'll just come, and do it!
Ha! That would be awesome. I've got to replace the breather hose now. Realized that it was broken clean in half where it connected to the top of the passenger side valve cover (and I had a HUGE amount of oil around the center spark plug, almost completely covered the plug when I pulled the coilpack off). So I need to try to order that as soon as I can tomorrow morning and hopefully get it overnighted...

You seriously have been a huge help! (And 4driver) Where you located anyway? At the start of this job I probably would have got you out here to walk me through but now I feel so deep in it that I SHOULD be able to finish it... Maybe with just a couple more posts here. Lol

I'll have replaced timing bet, ribbed belt, water pump, thermostat, crank seal & the front sprocket thingy. All valve seals and gasket. (Oh, and all tensioners and rollers)

Still to do:
Breather hose & suction pump (do the 2.7t's even have one?) Need to get part numbers and overnighted if I can so I can work over the weekend.

Might as well order the O ring for the bottom of the oil dipstick too since I forgot that... Does that have a part number? Lol
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:49 PM   #16
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Oh will you just quit it and get the show on the road (literally )... Forget those pictures. Just reach into that "common-sense" box and keep going. You got the manual(?), blauparts instructions AND, the invaluable help from all of us here! Really, if you still having trouble, buy me a flight ticket and couple lap dances at your local strip joint(decent one plz), I'll just come, and do it!

OH MY GOSH! I forgot to mention that the sprockets coming off SCARED the hell out of me! The noise and a bunch of dust or something shook off, totally thought something broke in half... And I was EXPECTING if to be loud! Ha!
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:57 AM   #17
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i have done this about 4 times and every time i do it i just leave the bar on while popping the sprockets. It does sound like a friggen gun going off when they pop though .
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:42 AM   #18
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OH MY GOSH! I forgot to mention that the sprockets coming off SCARED the hell out of me! The noise and a bunch of dust or something shook off, totally thought something broke in half... And I was EXPECTING if to be loud! Ha!
Really dude, you should be working an A6 - the kind LEGO makes... They got pretty pictures, templates to measure the parts... ok, ok, I forgot to say this in last post and I had to get it out.

Yeah similar feeling with sprocket popping off. When that happened first time, my biggest worry was if I broke a spoke of the sprocket. By the way, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T NICK THE SPROCKETS. If you drop it, the notches will bend easily. My nephew (5 year old...) thought it was a cool wheel, picks it up and dropped it. ARGH!!!... well, I had to file out the nick and buff it smooth. Maybe, I am over cautious but, the belt life could be affected if there is a nick. Just treat them with care that's all.

Anyway, do you have anyone helping you? I had no help for the entire thing except my bro came to help when loading in the cams with chain and tensioner together. For that time, with link count etc. it is helpful to have a helping hand. Of course, it could be done without any help as I did one side.

I am in NY/NJ region (not giving exact location: fear of Google finding me ). And you?
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:59 AM   #19
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Really dude, you should be working an A6 - the kind LEGO makes... They got pretty pictures, templates to measure the parts... ok, ok, I forgot to say this in last post and I had to get it out.

Yeah similar feeling with sprocket popping off. When that happened first time, my biggest worry was if I broke a spoke of the sprocket. By the way, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T NICK THE SPROCKETS. If you drop it, the notches will bend easily. My nephew (5 year old...) thought it was a cool wheel, picks it up and dropped it. ARGH!!!... well, I had to file out the nick and buff it smooth. Maybe, I am over cautious but, the belt life could be affected if there is a nick. Just treat them with care that's all.

Anyway, do you have anyone helping you? I had no help for the entire thing except my bro came to help when loading in the cams with chain and tensioner together. For that time, with link count etc. it is helpful to have a helping hand. Of course, it could be done without any help as I did one side.

I am in NY/NJ region (not giving exact location: fear of Google finding me ). And you?
Nope, I'm running completely solo on this and the most "advanced" job I've done on the car before is changing to my winter set of tires... so this is a big leap for me! I MIGHT be able to find a second set of hands to help with the cam/chains but I might not be able to, with my schedule I'm kinda working at odd times.

I'm in Washington State... so about as far away from you as possible.

Any chance you have any tips on the vent hose? Parts number for the 2002 2.7t? If this car has a suction pump I'll replace that with the vent hose too...

It was broken already a right where it came off the passenger side valve cover but as I was shifting it to try and reach and loosen the combi valve (holly crap that's in a horrible position too!) a huge five or six inch chunk broke... that "hose" is really brittle. I had a huge amount of oil around the center spark plug so to reduce the chance of having future problems I was going to replace the breather hose anyway so I don't still have issues after having a brand new gasket in...

Also, do you have any tips on reaching the aux water pump on the drivers side while/after doing the drivers side valve cover? Can you reach it? Is it easy to reach? Or is it located somewhere else on our cars?
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:48 AM   #20
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Any chance you have any tips on the vent hose? Parts number for the 2002 2.7t? If this car has a suction pump I'll replace that with the vent hose too...
... Also, do you have any tips on reaching the aux water pump on the drivers side while/after doing the drivers side valve cover? Can you reach it? Is it easy to reach? Or is it located somewhere else on our cars?
I tried looking up part numbers but, not much luck. Easiest thing to do: 1) Google it. 2) Call Audi dealer near you and ask if they have the part and what the part number is. Generally, they'll give you unless they are dick$. Worst case: Go to Auto parts store and get hi-temp hose (match diameter) by foot. Cut it to length and use hose clamps.

If you are still stuck, find where it is going to and from exactly, I'll try digging more.

As far as exact repair procedures on your model/car, I am sorry to say I won't be of much help because mine has 4.2 motor; very different. No Aux pump etc. on my car. Your best bet is the repair manual. Look under removal/installation instructions. Or, Search the forums. I wish I could help more here..

Anyway, this is my t-belt job pics... Pay attention to my "Radiator Stands" . I didn't want to remove trans oil lines - another PIA I didn't want to deal with at that time.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11123...IissIO_s-DluQE
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No more OIL or COOLANT leaks! │ T-Belt, Water pump & Valve Covers DONE! │ Trans & Diff Fluid DONE! │ Bearing & Inner Tie-rod Next │ Steering leaks?
Fuel Banks 1 & 2 Lean issue fixed (finally!)
Rebuild Bosch 150 Amp Alternator (save major $$$)
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:48 AM
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Audi R8




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