Emissions Fail, O2 Censor/Cat Converter, and Secondary Air Injection Vaccum Line
05-21-2015, 04:54 AM
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Emissions Fail, O2 Censor/Cat Converter, and Secondary Air Injection Vaccum Line
I've been going through the gambit of trying to pass emissions, initially getting the trouble codes. (P0130, P0150, P0491, P0492)
Just looking around, I saw "apparent" fixes, but other than changing brakes I have no idea what to do with a car as far as repairs are concerned.
I took the car to several Mechanics who told me they couldn't run a diagnostic on Audi, because they lacked the software to do so. So I ended up taking it directly to audi and getting a $161 charge.
They told me that I need: a catalytic converter bank 1 ($2191)
Secondary Air injection vacuum line ($433)
Possible: Left oxygen sensor ($1081)
..I refused service at the time, gave them their pound of flesh and left.
Next day I take it to another mechanic to see how much he'd charge(without showing him their prices), right away O2 censors $270 for labor and OEM part. He then gets hung up on the Secondary Lines.. which lead to him investigating further and found things that I'm concerned about. I'm worried I've been taken by Audi.
First, his problem he was having was that they condemned the Cat converter without the O2 censors working. He wanted to call the tech to speak with him, but there's no name or number on the invoice.
Second, because he himself couldn't see the airline codes on his tool, he started to inspect under the hood, with me standing next to him. right away found things unplug that, because he's not familiar with Audi's couldn't determine if it's a sensor related to my issues or to the AC. Regardless, $161 was paid, and they didn't see the thing that was unplugged.
I just want to know other people thoughts on this. Was the mechanic right in his thinking the O2 censors need to be repaired to even make the determination on the cat converter? And what about the thing unplugged.. it sits between the radiator and engine block, towards the passenger side?
Just looking around, I saw "apparent" fixes, but other than changing brakes I have no idea what to do with a car as far as repairs are concerned.
I took the car to several Mechanics who told me they couldn't run a diagnostic on Audi, because they lacked the software to do so. So I ended up taking it directly to audi and getting a $161 charge.
They told me that I need: a catalytic converter bank 1 ($2191)
Secondary Air injection vacuum line ($433)
Possible: Left oxygen sensor ($1081)
..I refused service at the time, gave them their pound of flesh and left.
Next day I take it to another mechanic to see how much he'd charge(without showing him their prices), right away O2 censors $270 for labor and OEM part. He then gets hung up on the Secondary Lines.. which lead to him investigating further and found things that I'm concerned about. I'm worried I've been taken by Audi.
First, his problem he was having was that they condemned the Cat converter without the O2 censors working. He wanted to call the tech to speak with him, but there's no name or number on the invoice.
Second, because he himself couldn't see the airline codes on his tool, he started to inspect under the hood, with me standing next to him. right away found things unplug that, because he's not familiar with Audi's couldn't determine if it's a sensor related to my issues or to the AC. Regardless, $161 was paid, and they didn't see the thing that was unplugged.
I just want to know other people thoughts on this. Was the mechanic right in his thinking the O2 censors need to be repaired to even make the determination on the cat converter? And what about the thing unplugged.. it sits between the radiator and engine block, towards the passenger side?
05-21-2015, 05:32 AM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
I am sorry to tell you, but these cars are expensive to fix and maintain, unless you have the skills and the tools to do it yourself.
If you don't have the skills, and you don't have the tools, do yourself a favor and sell this car as quickly as you can. Take the loss now, or you will take a much more serious loss by keeping it.
If you don't have the skills, and you don't have the tools, do yourself a favor and sell this car as quickly as you can. Take the loss now, or you will take a much more serious loss by keeping it.
05-21-2015, 06:30 AM
#3
AudiWorld Senior Member
The Audi dealer is not your best choice. They are invested in new car sales and less old used cars. They usually do not want to work on 10+ years old Audis unless you are crazy enough to pay their prices... Find an independent who SPECIALIZES in Audi. Find one working on several like yours. Talk to them. See if they are willing to discuss your car issues and their ways of making it pass emissions. Not talking about cheating the system just lower cost solutions.
My family drives 3 Audis, 2000, 2001, & 2001. All pass emissions and are reliable. But they need to be kept up and maintained regularly. Yes, they cost more than a Toyota or Honda to drive. And, yes, I fix many issues myself.
If you do not care to DIY then you will need a good shop who regularly repairs the same models and years as you have, and one that charges fairly, but not crazy. Or, as Georgeb944 says sell it. Properly maintained they are great cars, much better than a crappy car that is less old.
My family drives 3 Audis, 2000, 2001, & 2001. All pass emissions and are reliable. But they need to be kept up and maintained regularly. Yes, they cost more than a Toyota or Honda to drive. And, yes, I fix many issues myself.
If you do not care to DIY then you will need a good shop who regularly repairs the same models and years as you have, and one that charges fairly, but not crazy. Or, as Georgeb944 says sell it. Properly maintained they are great cars, much better than a crappy car that is less old.
05-21-2015, 07:25 AM
#4
I can understand your frustration here. At least you came to the right forum. Folks here generally are very good and help you get the best possible solution. In your case, I'd have to agree with others' replies on this thread. Most of us here are DIY mechanics with or access to some necessary tools to diagnose and repair these cars.
If you are not mechanically inclined and don't want to repair it yourself, expect that costs are going to run high quickly. Labor is not cheap and Dealers are the last places you should go to. Generally they are "certified" but not smart, if you catch my drift. Further, they want to bill most labor possible and don't want to repair sub units as it is easier to replace the whole unit -from their perspective.
Case in point, look at my alternator rebuild thread. It cost me nothing to repair my alternator compared to replacing with OEM or even a rebuilt one.
So, you have to make some decisions here. Ask around here for good mechanic(s) in your area and someone might be able to help. But, the best is to do it yourself (provided, you can do it right).
If you are not mechanically inclined and don't want to repair it yourself, expect that costs are going to run high quickly. Labor is not cheap and Dealers are the last places you should go to. Generally they are "certified" but not smart, if you catch my drift. Further, they want to bill most labor possible and don't want to repair sub units as it is easier to replace the whole unit -from their perspective.
Case in point, look at my alternator rebuild thread. It cost me nothing to repair my alternator compared to replacing with OEM or even a rebuilt one.
So, you have to make some decisions here. Ask around here for good mechanic(s) in your area and someone might be able to help. But, the best is to do it yourself (provided, you can do it right).
05-21-2015, 07:53 AM
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I'm not really concerned with the cost Audi gave me, because I'm not naive enough to think a German made vehicle would be cheap to repair, and I new the dealer prices was going to be higher.
As for cheating the system, I don't know what that's a reference to. If the cat converter needs to be repaired, right now I'm looking at a price quote for half of what audi will charge me for that(again, with OEM parts and labor) and if it needs to be replaced, then I will replace it within the next month or two. My real concern is, Audi is telling me to fix the converter and if you're still having issues...fix the O2. The mechanic, what he's saying is..the O2 sensors would've needed to work in order for them to say the converter isn't working, unless they take it apart. (He explained it to me, I don't fully understand it, but he tried).
He ran a scan on the O2 sensors, and 2 out of 4 weren't working at all, 1 started to work after the car warmed up(all this he showed me). To add insult to injury, he points out some form of censor is out of socket right under the hood. He's referred me to someone who works on audi, but I'd like to go in a little bit more informed. Because if audi, who I thought would be thorough and honest, might be trying to sell me additional repairs, in conjunction with the ones that I need repaired; the next guy might as well.
Lastly, I'm not oppose to attempting the repair myself...but I'm a youtube mechanic and there's not a lot of videos relating to these repairs.
As for cheating the system, I don't know what that's a reference to. If the cat converter needs to be repaired, right now I'm looking at a price quote for half of what audi will charge me for that(again, with OEM parts and labor) and if it needs to be replaced, then I will replace it within the next month or two. My real concern is, Audi is telling me to fix the converter and if you're still having issues...fix the O2. The mechanic, what he's saying is..the O2 sensors would've needed to work in order for them to say the converter isn't working, unless they take it apart. (He explained it to me, I don't fully understand it, but he tried).
He ran a scan on the O2 sensors, and 2 out of 4 weren't working at all, 1 started to work after the car warmed up(all this he showed me). To add insult to injury, he points out some form of censor is out of socket right under the hood. He's referred me to someone who works on audi, but I'd like to go in a little bit more informed. Because if audi, who I thought would be thorough and honest, might be trying to sell me additional repairs, in conjunction with the ones that I need repaired; the next guy might as well.
Lastly, I'm not oppose to attempting the repair myself...but I'm a youtube mechanic and there's not a lot of videos relating to these repairs.
05-21-2015, 08:06 AM
#6
I'm not really concerned with the cost Audi gave me, because I'm not naive enough to think a German made vehicle would be cheap to repair, and I new the dealer prices was going to be higher.
As for cheating the system, I don't know what that's a reference to. If the cat converter needs to be repaired, right now I'm looking at a price quote for half of what audi will charge me for that(again, with OEM parts and labor) and if it needs to be replaced, then I will replace it within the next month or two. My real concern is, Audi is telling me to fix the converter and if you're still having issues...fix the O2. The mechanic, what he's saying is..the O2 sensors would've needed to work in order for them to say the converter isn't working, unless they take it apart. (He explained it to me, I don't fully understand it, but he tried).
He ran a scan on the O2 sensors, and 2 out of 4 weren't working at all, 1 started to work after the car warmed up(all this he showed me). To add insult to injury, he points out some form of censor is out of socket right under the hood. He's referred me to someone who works on audi, but I'd like to go in a little bit more informed. Because if audi, who I thought would be thorough and honest, might be trying to sell me additional repairs, in conjunction with the ones that I need repaired; the next guy might as well.
Lastly, I'm not oppose to attempting the repair myself...but I'm a youtube mechanic and there's not a lot of videos relating to these repairs.
As for cheating the system, I don't know what that's a reference to. If the cat converter needs to be repaired, right now I'm looking at a price quote for half of what audi will charge me for that(again, with OEM parts and labor) and if it needs to be replaced, then I will replace it within the next month or two. My real concern is, Audi is telling me to fix the converter and if you're still having issues...fix the O2. The mechanic, what he's saying is..the O2 sensors would've needed to work in order for them to say the converter isn't working, unless they take it apart. (He explained it to me, I don't fully understand it, but he tried).
He ran a scan on the O2 sensors, and 2 out of 4 weren't working at all, 1 started to work after the car warmed up(all this he showed me). To add insult to injury, he points out some form of censor is out of socket right under the hood. He's referred me to someone who works on audi, but I'd like to go in a little bit more informed. Because if audi, who I thought would be thorough and honest, might be trying to sell me additional repairs, in conjunction with the ones that I need repaired; the next guy might as well.
Lastly, I'm not oppose to attempting the repair myself...but I'm a youtube mechanic and there's not a lot of videos relating to these repairs.
What's your car model/engine?
First, you need to make sure o2 sensors are working. I can understand both "Audi dealer's" and "The mechanic's" reasoning.
You see, on my car (I assume same for yours) there are 4 o2 sensors. 2 pre-cat and 2 post-cat. If the pre-cat sensors are showing errors, check wiring and replace o2 sensor(s). Nothing to do with cat here.
Post-cat, it can be the chicken or egg deal here. If the cat is bad, the post-cat o2 sensor will not be in range or show error. On the other hand, the o2 sensor could be bad but not the cat itself and you'd still face same situation.
Cats are obviously more expensive so, if I were you, start eliminating all wiring related issues. Then run diagnostics to check o2 sensors. If still bad, replace o2 sensor in question and lastly the cat itself. I hope that makes sense..
Last edited by tester123; 05-21-2015 at 08:13 AM.
05-21-2015, 08:41 AM
#7
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2001 A6 2.8 engine.
I don't know which censors they are, Audi report just says left sensors, the emissions says bank 1, sensor 1 and bank 2, sensor 1; a third diagnostic says Heated oxygen sensor bank 1, sensor 1.
The chicken or the egg is what's got me, honestly. Because of the cost involved, it's more an issue of priority and accuracy. Paying for something that doesn't need to be repaired at all or right at this moment, but still makes me fail my test, isn't ideal. Best case scenario, I'm out of pocket $700 in repair cost vs $2000+
I don't know which censors they are, Audi report just says left sensors, the emissions says bank 1, sensor 1 and bank 2, sensor 1; a third diagnostic says Heated oxygen sensor bank 1, sensor 1.
The chicken or the egg is what's got me, honestly. Because of the cost involved, it's more an issue of priority and accuracy. Paying for something that doesn't need to be repaired at all or right at this moment, but still makes me fail my test, isn't ideal. Best case scenario, I'm out of pocket $700 in repair cost vs $2000+
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05-21-2015, 08:46 AM
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... Cheating the system??? what are you talking about? If you are referring to my statement about Dealers, then I stand by that based on my and many others' experiences with dealers in past. Perhaps, you'll come to same conclusion after multiple visits to their facilities.
05-21-2015, 05:47 PM
#9
no worries. The process to check for o2 sensors is a bit lengthy and requires VAG-COM or similar tool to monitor different measuring blocks.
The mechanic (if you are going this route) should use such tool and go through the diagnostic and checking procedure to check all sensors and find where the issue is. It's difficult to help further here on the forums as the rest requires being there in person and performing necessary tasks.
The mechanic (if you are going this route) should use such tool and go through the diagnostic and checking procedure to check all sensors and find where the issue is. It's difficult to help further here on the forums as the rest requires being there in person and performing necessary tasks.
05-22-2015, 06:10 AM
#10
AudiWorld Senior Member
Cheating the system was a reference to those who go to programming based Audi websites and find ways to program around fault codes, as well as those who remove components (cats for example) that are integral to the engine design and emissions.
There are those on this website who readily advocate replacing cats. I am not one. I had cat codes once and several said to replace. Eventually I found replacing O2 sensors and adding a spacer to the rears solved the issue. Been years and 20,000 + miles since w/o issue. Also, some issues are the result of many minor items in combination, air leaks for example. And, sometimes cats do need to be replaced because other issues were ignored for too long and did indeed kill the cats. Like ignoring EGT issues can kill a cat.
Again, if you are not willing to get into DIY, taking the time to explore and understand the interrelationships of components and systems, then I advise finding an indy that specializes in C5 Audis. I try to understand or learn the systems that fail. This site is very helpful if you are willing to spend a good deal of time reading multiple threads. Seldom does one thread on an issue give you enough. I am not a mechanic but I have lots of hours and tools. But, I also have a shop I trust. They do the stuff I do not wish to take on.
There are those on this website who readily advocate replacing cats. I am not one. I had cat codes once and several said to replace. Eventually I found replacing O2 sensors and adding a spacer to the rears solved the issue. Been years and 20,000 + miles since w/o issue. Also, some issues are the result of many minor items in combination, air leaks for example. And, sometimes cats do need to be replaced because other issues were ignored for too long and did indeed kill the cats. Like ignoring EGT issues can kill a cat.
Again, if you are not willing to get into DIY, taking the time to explore and understand the interrelationships of components and systems, then I advise finding an indy that specializes in C5 Audis. I try to understand or learn the systems that fail. This site is very helpful if you are willing to spend a good deal of time reading multiple threads. Seldom does one thread on an issue give you enough. I am not a mechanic but I have lots of hours and tools. But, I also have a shop I trust. They do the stuff I do not wish to take on.