How close are the D3's to Phaetons related?
02-12-2015, 11:44 PM
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How close are the D3's to Phaetons related?
I was browsing The Car Lounge today as I am an active member. A Phaeton enthusiast listed some really interesting tech on what they had. Does the D3 compare in terms of tech and engineering? He makes them things look pretty damn impressive. What neat tech or otherwise easter eggs to our cars have under the skin?
This is his post copied from TCL. Very interesting read.
This is his post copied from TCL. Very interesting read.
Although they look similar, the A8 is not the same as the Phaeton. The Bentley Continental is essentially a re-badged Phaeton.
To all the people posting cars in this topic, can you give some sort of quantification to the cars you pick?
Couple quick things about the Phaeton-
VW Phaeton torsional rigidity- 37,000 Nm/degree.
Reliability VS the Audi A8-
Phaeton interior sound level- Volkswagen Phaeton - An Understated and Compellingly Quiet Luxury Car Experience
Phaeton door safety / quality- Fronius International GmbH - Focus on welding - weld+vision
Phaeton seat quality award- VW Phaeton Wins Award for Seat Comfort
Phaeton stereo system-
SURVEYING THE BEST NEW CAR SOUND SYSTEMS | LA Car
Phaeton instrument cluster glass- Online Magazine - Info101 - Anti-reflective Conturan glass | SCHOTT AG
Then there is stuff like the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) with an exterior temperature of 50 °C (122 °F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C (72 °F)
The Phaeton has 2 batteries. If you turn the key and the battery is dead so the car won't start, turn the key back off and turn it again- the car will switch to the other battery to start the car.
If you are in an accident, there is an explosive charge that blows to disconnect the battery for safety.
The alternator is liquid cooled and capable of 300amps charging...BUT, if for some reason the car starts to loose power, it goes into a self preservation mode and intelligently shuts down items to conserve power-
Then there is a ton of little stuff, like the alternating headlight washers, alternating wiper blade park positions with independent wiper motors for each arm.
When you open the trunk, the latch mechanism disappears into the trunk lid so you don't hit your head on it.
Right and Left electric rear foot-well heaters. These act as supplemental heaters for the rear passengers until the car has warmed up.
Soft Start. you don't have to keep the key turned to the right until the engine catches but you can let it go- The car will continue to crank until it starts. The starter is engaged only until the engine is running, leading to improved starter protection and less noise." it's impossible to 'grind' the starter motor.
Variable AC Compressor. "The angle of the swash plate changes.
This determines the stroke volume of the pistons and the resulting refrigeration performance generated by the compressor."
The 4- zone climate control is an amazingly elaborate system, with light sensors, humidity sensors, but my favorite part- It has an air quality sensor. It can detect pollutants in the outside air. If it detects smog or foul air, it closes the outside circulation and recirculates the air inside the car until you are past the pollutants.
Etc, etc. They are truly amazing cars, especially when designed 15 years ago.
To all the people posting cars in this topic, can you give some sort of quantification to the cars you pick?
Couple quick things about the Phaeton-
VW Phaeton torsional rigidity- 37,000 Nm/degree.
Reliability VS the Audi A8-
In the most recent German TÜV reliability survey - which is considered as one of the most exhaustive studies on this subject anywhere - the results were as follows:
Most reliable car, age group 2-3 years: Toyota Prius (avg. major fault rate 1,9%, avg. mileage 39000km). Phaeton is 11th (fault 3,4%, mileage 54000km): this place is shared with VW EOS, Tiguan and Porsche 911. Audi A8 is 24th (fault 4,2%, mileage 81000km). MB S-class is 100th (7,5% fault, 70 000 km). BMW 7 did not make it to top 127.
Most reliable car, age group 4-5 years: VW Phaeton (fault rate 2,4%, avg. mileage 76000km). Prius is now on second position, followed by Porsche Boxster/Cayman and then VW EOS. Audi A8 is now 8th. MB S-class is 40th (avg 8,3%, 88000km)."
Most reliable car, age group 2-3 years: Toyota Prius (avg. major fault rate 1,9%, avg. mileage 39000km). Phaeton is 11th (fault 3,4%, mileage 54000km): this place is shared with VW EOS, Tiguan and Porsche 911. Audi A8 is 24th (fault 4,2%, mileage 81000km). MB S-class is 100th (7,5% fault, 70 000 km). BMW 7 did not make it to top 127.
Most reliable car, age group 4-5 years: VW Phaeton (fault rate 2,4%, avg. mileage 76000km). Prius is now on second position, followed by Porsche Boxster/Cayman and then VW EOS. Audi A8 is now 8th. MB S-class is 40th (avg 8,3%, 88000km)."
Phaeton interior sound level- Volkswagen Phaeton - An Understated and Compellingly Quiet Luxury Car Experience
Phaeton door safety / quality- Fronius International GmbH - Focus on welding - weld+vision
Phaeton seat quality award- VW Phaeton Wins Award for Seat Comfort
Phaeton stereo system-
The result is, arguably, the best-sounding factory audio system on the planet. the Phaeton shows what the state-of-the-art can render in a factory sound system.
SURVEYING THE BEST NEW CAR SOUND SYSTEMS | LA Car
Phaeton instrument cluster glass- Online Magazine - Info101 - Anti-reflective Conturan glass | SCHOTT AG
By reducing reflection to the minimal level of just 0.5 percent, “Conturan” sets new standards. For the sake of comparison, regular reflective float glass reflects about eight percent of light. “Conturan” thus offers an improvement of more than 93 percent.
Then there is stuff like the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) with an exterior temperature of 50 °C (122 °F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C (72 °F)
The Phaeton has 2 batteries. If you turn the key and the battery is dead so the car won't start, turn the key back off and turn it again- the car will switch to the other battery to start the car.
If you are in an accident, there is an explosive charge that blows to disconnect the battery for safety.
The alternator is liquid cooled and capable of 300amps charging...BUT, if for some reason the car starts to loose power, it goes into a self preservation mode and intelligently shuts down items to conserve power-
Then there is a ton of little stuff, like the alternating headlight washers, alternating wiper blade park positions with independent wiper motors for each arm.
When you open the trunk, the latch mechanism disappears into the trunk lid so you don't hit your head on it.
Right and Left electric rear foot-well heaters. These act as supplemental heaters for the rear passengers until the car has warmed up.
Soft Start. you don't have to keep the key turned to the right until the engine catches but you can let it go- The car will continue to crank until it starts. The starter is engaged only until the engine is running, leading to improved starter protection and less noise." it's impossible to 'grind' the starter motor.
Variable AC Compressor. "The angle of the swash plate changes.
This determines the stroke volume of the pistons and the resulting refrigeration performance generated by the compressor."
The 4- zone climate control is an amazingly elaborate system, with light sensors, humidity sensors, but my favorite part- It has an air quality sensor. It can detect pollutants in the outside air. If it detects smog or foul air, it closes the outside circulation and recirculates the air inside the car until you are past the pollutants.
Etc, etc. They are truly amazing cars, especially when designed 15 years ago.
Last edited by Darren Coogan; 02-12-2015 at 11:47 PM.
02-13-2015, 12:06 AM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
Kinda goes on and on toward seeming adoration, but...
I lost interest about when it got to two and three year old reliability stats. There are no D3s that are two or three years old, so that must be D4s against newer Phaetons. For USA/North America owners, it quickly becomes irrelevant and apples and oranges.
Phaeton was VW's laughing stock in the USA. An unmitigated, mishandled disaster. Pardon my French as it were. Apparently shaped up later in Germany as a nice car, but not so much early on. In D3 era, it was also saddled with the 5 speed piece of ZF crap tranny I got to own in my C5 4.2. Shifted fine, til it reliably broke outright (things like clutch baskets) at 100K miles. not just a few--rampant. I like Audis, but there is one where ZF knew it sold a piece of crap design tranny it had to rev mid stream, yet ZF and Audi both kept their mouth shut. Back on point, Phaetons got saddled with the craptastic 5HP, while Audi moved on to the way better, way more reliable, more economical, lighter 6 speed. Phaeton motors also got detuned relative to D3's FWIW. Not so good drivetrain wise all in all, which to me puts any supposed reliability or well regarded drivetrain claims in big doubt, especially apples to apples concerning older North America ones.
Finally as pointed out early on in the post, Phaetons are really more tied to Bentley Continentals with the steel body set up. Like, another 1,000 pounds of pork (thats a lot o' pork!!!!), but no turbos to melt that fat away. The D3 is really a work of art on some of the aluminum stuff when you get deep in. Any sedan well over 5,000 pounds on the other hand is just plain ridiculous and sub par designed is it isn't some odd ball like an armored, or power out the wazoo like a blown Bentley. Net about all I can think of good about the U.S. Phaeton is it was such a bomb that they were being given away almost on the used market even just two or three years out. Nowhere else on the planet could you get like two or three year old 12 cylinder Autobahn luxury ride (8 or 10 years ago) for like less than $30K IIRC, even if it had the craptastic 5 speed and its W12 optional flavor got detuned to 420HP.
Phaeton was VW's laughing stock in the USA. An unmitigated, mishandled disaster. Pardon my French as it were. Apparently shaped up later in Germany as a nice car, but not so much early on. In D3 era, it was also saddled with the 5 speed piece of ZF crap tranny I got to own in my C5 4.2. Shifted fine, til it reliably broke outright (things like clutch baskets) at 100K miles. not just a few--rampant. I like Audis, but there is one where ZF knew it sold a piece of crap design tranny it had to rev mid stream, yet ZF and Audi both kept their mouth shut. Back on point, Phaetons got saddled with the craptastic 5HP, while Audi moved on to the way better, way more reliable, more economical, lighter 6 speed. Phaeton motors also got detuned relative to D3's FWIW. Not so good drivetrain wise all in all, which to me puts any supposed reliability or well regarded drivetrain claims in big doubt, especially apples to apples concerning older North America ones.
Finally as pointed out early on in the post, Phaetons are really more tied to Bentley Continentals with the steel body set up. Like, another 1,000 pounds of pork (thats a lot o' pork!!!!), but no turbos to melt that fat away. The D3 is really a work of art on some of the aluminum stuff when you get deep in. Any sedan well over 5,000 pounds on the other hand is just plain ridiculous and sub par designed is it isn't some odd ball like an armored, or power out the wazoo like a blown Bentley. Net about all I can think of good about the U.S. Phaeton is it was such a bomb that they were being given away almost on the used market even just two or three years out. Nowhere else on the planet could you get like two or three year old 12 cylinder Autobahn luxury ride (8 or 10 years ago) for like less than $30K IIRC, even if it had the craptastic 5 speed and its W12 optional flavor got detuned to 420HP.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 02-13-2015 at 12:33 AM.
02-13-2015, 05:53 AM
#3
AudiWorld Member
I test drove a Phaeton about a dozen years ago. Was at the VW dealer to look at a Tourag and took the Phaeton out. I drove a 1999 SWB A8 (D2) at the time, and I was very impressed with the Phaeton, in particular the interior. It felt noticibly heavier than my D2, but it was a "good" heavy feel insofar as cruising was concerned. Very quiet. Thinking back, I believe a good bit of the Phaeton interior found its way into the D3, in particular the seats. Mike
02-13-2015, 07:53 AM
#4
AudiWorld Wiseguy
I think most of the systems architecture is shared. So electronics, suspension, HVAC, drivetrains (albeit detuned) etc. So most of those gwhizz facts and figures apply to the D3 also. Although I don't think the Phateon has an MMI equivalent?
Biggest difference though is of course the super heavy steel unibody vs the lightweight D3 aluminum space frame and body panels. The d3 in this respect is far more advanced and still ahead of its time in this respect.
Biggest difference though is of course the super heavy steel unibody vs the lightweight D3 aluminum space frame and body panels. The d3 in this respect is far more advanced and still ahead of its time in this respect.
02-13-2015, 01:07 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
Phaetons in the US (04-06) had good points and bad. I actually liked the interior and exterior design of the Phaeton better than the D3 A8; it was more formal. But I opted for the D3 because of the technology in the D3.
Phaetons had CD based Nav, Phaetons had no iPod interface (which admittedly only came to the A8 in 2008, but it is retrofitable to earlier D3s), Phaetons did not even come to the US with Bi-Xenon headlights (!), no Bluetooth connection was ever avaiable, and the Phaeton INDIVIDUAL program (corresponds to the EXCLUSIVE program at Audi) never came to the US. And even in Europe the INDIVIDUAL options did not include tray tables, lighted sills,etc etc that the European EXCLUSIVE A8s had available and which I put in my A8.
BUT I will say that Phaetons have seats that are WAY more comfortable than the A8's. And the fit and finish of a Phaeton interior is superior to an A8. And Phaetons have a much better ride. And I liked the hidden HVAC outlets and the redundant battery system.
Unfortunately the Phaeton was obsolete tech-wise before they sold the first one. I dont have the money for a new Phaeton, but if I did and if they were available here in the US, I would defiinately buy a new Phaeton...all the above short comings have been corrected...before I would buy a D4 A8.
Phaetons had CD based Nav, Phaetons had no iPod interface (which admittedly only came to the A8 in 2008, but it is retrofitable to earlier D3s), Phaetons did not even come to the US with Bi-Xenon headlights (!), no Bluetooth connection was ever avaiable, and the Phaeton INDIVIDUAL program (corresponds to the EXCLUSIVE program at Audi) never came to the US. And even in Europe the INDIVIDUAL options did not include tray tables, lighted sills,etc etc that the European EXCLUSIVE A8s had available and which I put in my A8.
BUT I will say that Phaetons have seats that are WAY more comfortable than the A8's. And the fit and finish of a Phaeton interior is superior to an A8. And Phaetons have a much better ride. And I liked the hidden HVAC outlets and the redundant battery system.
Unfortunately the Phaeton was obsolete tech-wise before they sold the first one. I dont have the money for a new Phaeton, but if I did and if they were available here in the US, I would defiinately buy a new Phaeton...all the above short comings have been corrected...before I would buy a D4 A8.
02-13-2015, 11:49 PM
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I was browsing The Car Lounge today as I am an active member. A Phaeton enthusiast listed some really interesting tech on what they had. Does the D3 compare in terms of tech and engineering? He makes them things look pretty damn impressive. What neat tech or otherwise easter eggs to our cars have under the skin?
This is his post copied from TCL. Very interesting read.
This is his post copied from TCL. Very interesting read.
I drove mine ~155 MPH for about 5 minutes before I realized this is requiring more concentration than I'm comfortable with... wife looked up from her magazine as she detected deceleration at 125 and said don't you think this is a bit too fast...
The Phaeton has 2 batteries. If you turn the key and the battery is dead so the car won't start, turn the key back off and turn it again- the car will switch to the other battery to start the car. Ours has "only" one and and I think most would argue the weight of the second battery isn't worth the few times it's needed...
If you are in an accident, there is an explosive charge that blows to disconnect the battery for safety.
A8s had it in 2004. Perhaps earlier.
The alternator is liquid cooled and capable of 300amps charging...BUT, if for some reason the car starts to loose power, it goes into a self preservation mode and intelligently shuts down items to conserve power-
Check, we got it; although I'm not sure one battery and all accessories would ever need / handle 200A ... that water-cooled alternator made me scratch me head a bit...
Then there is a ton of little stuff, like the alternating headlight washers, alternating wiper blade park positions with independent wiper motors for each arm.
Ha, I just mentioned the wiper park elsewhere - we have it, don't think there are separate motors for each blade... some seem to have alternating pedestrian washers, some don't; mine don't work right now...
When you open the trunk, the latch mechanism disappears into the trunk lid so you don't hit your head on it.
never hit my head yet...
Right and Left electric rear foot-well heaters. These act as supplemental heaters for the rear passengers until the car has warmed up.
Pretty sure standard in cold-weather countries where the programmable auxiliary diesel engine heat is also standard on A8s (if you ever wondered what the strange round opening surrounded by parentheses on the passenger side belly pan was, it's for the little heater's exhaust); also w/4-zone climate control.
Soft Start. you don't have to keep the key turned to the right until the engine catches but you can let it go- The car will continue to crank until it starts. The starter is engaged only until the engine is running, leading to improved starter protection and less noise." it's impossible to 'grind' the starter motor.
Variable AC Compressor. "The angle of the swash plate changes. This determines the stroke volume of the pistons and the resulting refrigeration performance generated by the compressor."
The 4- zone climate control is an amazingly elaborate system, with light sensors, humidity sensors, but my favorite part- It has an air quality sensor. It can detect pollutants in the outside air. If it detects smog or foul air, it closes the outside circulation and recirculates the air inside the car until you are past the pollutants.
Got all above. My 1996 E-Class had a better carbon (automatic) filter though. 4" thick, granular charcoal (weighed a couple pounds easy) 12X12 inches. We turned it off to smell the rain or sometimes for fresh cut grass; lasted about 18 months and cost ~$100 discounted or$212 from Stealer...otherwise far superior to any filtration I've experienced.
You'd probably enjoy this A8 factoid: the AC switches to recirc/filter for ~20seconds UNLESS defrost is on - whenever you activate the windscreen washer. That I don't remember seeing in the Phaeton SSP! (I originally wanted one but then I found the A8 is a better car)
Etc, etc. They are truly amazing cars, especially when designed 15 years ago.
Both are amazing, I agree.
-Tom
02-14-2015, 08:57 AM
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Some other interesting things about the Phaetons...
The alternator is a 200amp beast. It is WATER cooled. The complexity of replacing the coolant tube connector to the oil/water exchanger is vastly complicated by this detail. The extra hard lines to/from the alternator make the coolant tube replacement project interesting. This project on an Audi D2 A8/S8 is no easy feat. It is exponentially worse on the Phaeton 4.2 V8.
The Phaeton has motorized dash air vent covers. If the dash vents are not "on", the covers are down leaving a fairly clean dash belt-line trim of wood across the entire dash. Pretty snazzy.
The "smart" keys for the Phaeton can be coded to the infotainment system by name. It is nice when you enter the car and (if you've programmed it), the center console will display, set and welcome you with your name. For those that only use one key, no big deal. Just nice to see your presets are being re-called visually.
The alternator is a 200amp beast. It is WATER cooled. The complexity of replacing the coolant tube connector to the oil/water exchanger is vastly complicated by this detail. The extra hard lines to/from the alternator make the coolant tube replacement project interesting. This project on an Audi D2 A8/S8 is no easy feat. It is exponentially worse on the Phaeton 4.2 V8.
The Phaeton has motorized dash air vent covers. If the dash vents are not "on", the covers are down leaving a fairly clean dash belt-line trim of wood across the entire dash. Pretty snazzy.
The "smart" keys for the Phaeton can be coded to the infotainment system by name. It is nice when you enter the car and (if you've programmed it), the center console will display, set and welcome you with your name. For those that only use one key, no big deal. Just nice to see your presets are being re-called visually.
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02-14-2015, 05:42 PM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
Some other interesting things about the Phaetons...
The alternator is a 200amp beast. It is WATER cooled. The complexity of replacing the coolant tube connector to the oil/water exchanger is vastly complicated by this detail. The extra hard lines to/from the alternator make the coolant tube replacement project interesting. This project on an Audi D2 A8/S8 is no easy feat. It is exponentially worse on the Phaeton 4.2 V8.
The Phaeton has motorized dash air vent covers. If the dash vents are not "on", the covers are down leaving a fairly clean dash belt-line trim of wood across the entire dash. Pretty snazzy.
The "smart" keys for the Phaeton can be coded to the infotainment system by name. It is nice when you enter the car and (if you've programmed it), the center console will display, set and welcome you with your name. For those that only use one key, no big deal. Just nice to see your presets are being re-called visually.
The alternator is a 200amp beast. It is WATER cooled. The complexity of replacing the coolant tube connector to the oil/water exchanger is vastly complicated by this detail. The extra hard lines to/from the alternator make the coolant tube replacement project interesting. This project on an Audi D2 A8/S8 is no easy feat. It is exponentially worse on the Phaeton 4.2 V8.
The Phaeton has motorized dash air vent covers. If the dash vents are not "on", the covers are down leaving a fairly clean dash belt-line trim of wood across the entire dash. Pretty snazzy.
The "smart" keys for the Phaeton can be coded to the infotainment system by name. It is nice when you enter the car and (if you've programmed it), the center console will display, set and welcome you with your name. For those that only use one key, no big deal. Just nice to see your presets are being re-called visually.
Everyone here is aware that the alternators in the D3's are water cooled as well, correct?
I have to admit that this is the longest I have gone without having to replace an alternator or at least the brushes in an Audi or VW alternator. 235,000 miles. I guess the engine coolant, which is hot as hell, is still cooler than the windings and silicon in a 200 amp alternator under load.
02-14-2015, 07:37 PM
#9
AudiWorld Senior Member
Everyone here is aware that the alternators in the D3's are water cooled as well, correct?
I have to admit that this is the longest I have gone without having to replace an alternator or at least the brushes in an Audi or VW alternator. 235,000 miles. I guess the engine coolant, which is hot as hell, is still cooler than the windings and silicon in a 200 amp alternator under load.
I have to admit that this is the longest I have gone without having to replace an alternator or at least the brushes in an Audi or VW alternator. 235,000 miles. I guess the engine coolant, which is hot as hell, is still cooler than the windings and silicon in a 200 amp alternator under load.
I did not know my alternator is water cooler. With the electrical draw this is a good feature.
02-19-2015, 03:09 PM
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Ive owned a Phaeton V10TDI (10Cylinder twin turbo diesel, I remapped it to 350bhp and 600ft-lbs, has a special 6 speed gearbox to handle the torque), a D2 S8 and just now (as in yesterday) a D3 4.2l A8.
Im not going to write a bunch of loving text for one of the other but in a nutshell:
Whats better about the A8 D3:
- The chassis and feel that it gives driving a car that much lighter
- The engine note of the 4.2 (granted a diesel cant compete so thats unfair but still)
- The sideways pointing lights it pops on when you are close to a kerb etc
Whats better about the Phaeton
- "Everything" else, not in a hyperbolic way, but yes everything else is slightly nicer in the Phaeton.
SideShotwithtower1.jpg Photo by mattsimis | Photobucket
PS: There are a whole bunch of stuff $hittyier on the US Phaetons (smaller brakes, no V10TDI, no short wheelbase and lots more), thats not a Phaeton critique, its a VW of A critque.
Im not going to write a bunch of loving text for one of the other but in a nutshell:
Whats better about the A8 D3:
- The chassis and feel that it gives driving a car that much lighter
- The engine note of the 4.2 (granted a diesel cant compete so thats unfair but still)
- The sideways pointing lights it pops on when you are close to a kerb etc
Whats better about the Phaeton
- "Everything" else, not in a hyperbolic way, but yes everything else is slightly nicer in the Phaeton.
SideShotwithtower1.jpg Photo by mattsimis | Photobucket
PS: There are a whole bunch of stuff $hittyier on the US Phaetons (smaller brakes, no V10TDI, no short wheelbase and lots more), thats not a Phaeton critique, its a VW of A critque.
Last edited by mattsimis; 02-19-2015 at 03:16 PM.
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