KnappAttack

This Dieselgate is going to cost them huge $ between fines and reduced customer/public trust.

Your Guide To Dieselgate: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe*

volvopentaman

EPA tests are pure BS, as are European tests too.

My friend works at a Finnish exhaust emission testing facility (VTT), and they had a Volvo V70 D5 there for tests. It claimed around 170g/km of C02 emissions, the truth was somewhat around 270g/km!!!

And the same thing with all cars they tested, NONE made it through the test, even near claimed CO2 emission numbers!!!

And another thing, you Americans are just hysterious about anything like this, mass-law suits against companies... and with what argument? "My VW emits more pollutants that the EPA tested???!!"

Well, if the EPA as an INDEPENDENT authority did the test, then it should be true, if it claims a certain NOx level, and it passed the test, then fine, that's it.

If it emits different amounts in real life driving, then so be it.

I can tell you, when the car has 10.000mls on the clock, it will emit 100 times more crap than it did at any emissions test, trust me! So if the so called "real-life" measurements differ 10-40x from what measured at EPA, that's just normal!

Take my 1998 Volvo S90 as an example. It emitted 6ppm (particles per million) HC (hydrocarbon) emissions at MOT test last week. 7 years ago it emitted 81ppm at the same test. So that means 13x more at the earlier test... wonder what it emits when the engine and catalyzer are cold when i start it from minus celsius?

You see the point...

Newer cars are cleaner, but no gas or diesel-burning car wil have zero emissions!

RED HORSE

Much to-do about nothing IMO. OK, VW may have been naughty and made their cars perform better for the consumer while accommodating the rules of the environmentalists. Personally, I applaud them for the concern for the end user.

I imagine VW will pay a big fine and suffer huge legal costs and the only real change to the world will be the environmentalists will be able to thump their chests about how they took a step to save the world and us customers will have cars with reduced performance to drive.

Sorry, just can't get excited.

derfA8L

Unfortunately for VW and Audi, questions regarding the validity of EPA or other countries' emissions tests are completely irrelevant in this situation. VW and Audi appear to have illegally corrupted the emissions testing process and thereby circumvented governmentally imposed lawfull emissions regulations that are the basis for their vehicles with the affected diesel engines being certified for sale within those countries. In doing so, VW and Audi are also likely guilty of committing consumer fraud by knowingly advertising and offering for sale vehicles that they knew did not conform with established government certification requirements, and where therefore being sold illegally.

The real question for this forum to consider is how VAG, in its need to fund the huge financial impact of paying the levied fines and the repairing of all these recalled cars, will need to value engineer their other model lines such as the A8. You could argue that it would be a big mistake for them to diminish the features and quality of the A8/S8 model line, but the corporate need to find ways to get out of this rather large financial pickle could well be short sighted, at least for the near term, as final planning for the next gen D5 is now underway---not to mention how this affects corporate rigidity regarding how warranty repair issues will be addressed. Just my opinion and concern.

Jack88

That's the key, isn't it? How much will the fuel economy and performance of these vehicles be reduced in being made compliant? That's where the lawsuit will be, if performance and economy end up being significantly off of advertised. Honda had to pay when it's hybrids couldn't match claims. Comparing the emissions of a new car to a used one isn't valid, either. Poor emissions is common as the equipment gets worn out and the engine is no longer at it's peak.

RCCurtis

Another thread on this forum:

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-...ecall-2889275/

volvopentaman

Legally speaking, there is only like one problem here:

These cars HAVE all passed the REQUIRED EPA tests, that are in fact known to be total BS.

These cars have ONLY failed the "real world" NOx emissions tests, that are NOT required By law AFAIK.

And to the promises made to consumers By VW.... Well, have you got on a paper, that VW promises a certain level of NOx and a certain performance ?

Fuel economy is of course written on papers, and the amount of horsepower usually, BUT acceleration times are in many cases not mentioned anywhere, just because of these things...

So technically and legally speaking, the only thing VW did wrong was fail on REAL WORLD NOx emission tests, that are NOT REQUIRED BY LAW, AFAIK?

So what is the problem here?

Well, it seems to be that people are creating a huge hype of this nonsense thing.

Of course, ethically it's wrong to implement a piece of code, that detects emissions testing on a dynamometer, and make the car comply with emissions in that way, but if the LAW requires ONLY this dynamometer test, then so be it.

I might be naive or something like that, but I will follow this thing, when it some day get's into court. I think the DEA will be the one on thin ice here, not VW. VW is complying with every legal thing, it's just "the people" that want them decapitated so to say.

Jack88

A lot of emotion in this response...you don't happen to work for VAG, do you? Anyhow, what they did was in fact illegal. To install software that alters parameters during emissions testing is a clear violation. As a non US customer, this will not all apply in your country, but the EU countries will be looking into this if it violates any of their own laws.

The government here will end up forcing a recall of affected models to have the software removed. Any lawsuit that may result from the owners would be due to a loss of performance and efficiency of the engine, and only if it is significantly different from advertised as a result of fixing the affected models. It has been done before, last time against Honda, I believe.

Here is the EPA's page on current events.

derfA8L

Hate to say it, but I think you are being naïve. VAG knowingly violated US regulations for vehicle certification, that's what they did---which, beyond being "ethically wrong" is, in fact, an offense that carries heavy monetary penalties. That they, with full knowledge and forethought, contrived to circumvent US regulations via a clear deceptive practice, and then knowingly exported vehicles for sale where they knew model engines were legally deficient in their ability to be US sales certifiable, constitutes a regulatory offense, which would also constitute a criminal offense if a charge of fraud were attached. I'd venture that even a first year prosecutor could make a darn good prima facia case against VAG (and possibly it's US Volkswagen and Audi subsidiaries, if proven that they were also aware) for both civil regulatory and criminal fraud. That real world driving conditions are different than static emissions testing conditions is totally irrelevant.

snagitseven

As much as we would like it to be, this is not something that is being blown out of proportion. It's a huge deal for VAG, perhaps even bigger than the unintended acceleration issue years ago. Senior management has admitted publicly to knowingly modifying 11M diesel engine cars to bypass the requirements of various countries' emission requirements which presumably saved them money, made their mpg and/or performance better at the expense of emissions and likely both. The VAG CEO is already gone and as of today, it;s reported two other senior execs are on their way out. In the U.S., the justice dept. is exploring possible criminal charges.

It's also been reported that in California, VAG had agreed to do a recall to modify the software a few months ago when the CA agency discovered discrepancies. They didn't come clean with the agency or the public and in the end the software changes didn't work which could mean it will take more expensive hardware changes as well. Affected unsold diesel cars are now uncertified and dealers are unable to sell their inventory. Another report today was that the EPA is now also investigating the VAG 3.0 diesel engines.

This will significantly affect the company financially - VAG is in really deep on this and we as owners should be very concerned, whether or not we own a diesel or gas model Audi or VW. This will not go away quietly.