Q7 Diesel Hybrid...interesting
12-19-2014, 08:10 PM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
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Q7 Diesel Hybrid...interesting
Best of all worlds...hybrid for city and diesel for Suburban/Highway motoring. Sounds like there might even be a plug-in feature to come
Audi Q7 diesel plug in hybrid SUV news and details
Audi Q7 diesel plug in hybrid SUV news and details
12-20-2014, 10:52 PM
#2
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It's certainly interesting to see what fuel efficiency gains can be made, but now owners will have to replace a DPF and a hybrid battery every few years...which makes this Q7's maintenance very expensive.
08-04-2017, 09:44 PM
#3
AudiWorld Senior Member
I really wish they would come out with this, but one does have to wonder if the efficiency savings can ever overcome the cost of the additional battery and motor. The answer is - it doesn't matter in the US since it would qualify for the $7500 tax credit - plus more in CA, and end up being cheaper than the non-hybrid one.
08-05-2017, 07:17 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
08-06-2017, 05:02 AM
#6
AudiWorld Senior Member
Nothing is for certain, but considering what's going on with diesels (and that's not only VW group), most car makers are pulling their diesels from US market. It looks like diesel lost it's luster due to double whammy: low gasoline prices, Tesla (forget the dieselgate for a sec.).
First, in Europe and in most of the ROW countries gasoline is substantially more expensive than diesel, not so in NA. In the view of car manufacturers, ROW is the right market for diesel cars. Not only you pay less for fuel, but your mileage is a lot better. In fact, if you look at Q7 specifically, you will notice that except in NA everywhere else it's offered ONLY in TDI versions (3.0 or 4.0). In NA, this market is a lot smaller, call it more of an enthusiast type. When the gasoline prices hit close to $5/gal. a lot more people flocked to the diesel cars, but prices came down, we had diesel gate and now car companies view this market as dead (at least for now).
Second, most traditional car manufacturers viewed hybrid and electric vehicles as a small production niche market. Tesla has uprooted that belief, and really stuck it to them. I don't particularly like it, but you do have to give props to Musk's team, they took an idea and engineered the crap out of it (within reasonable financially viable budget with a forward view on future financing and stock prices ;-) ). Unlike other car manufacturers, they not only build a vehicle, but redesigned the whole sale process and build supporting infrastructure as well (superchargers). Yes, there is still this whole range anxiety, but that only really exists for long commutes or road trips, and there is the price. But now, with model 3, that's a lot more attainable and justifiable for more people. Tesla is no longer a status symbol, or a toy. Everybody was waiting for traditional car manufacturers to jump in and start cranking Tesla killers, but that has not happened. It looks like most of them are waiting for the fad to go away. Best analogy I found so far to what's going on is the one were Sheldon Cooper is talking about an ipod:
There is also another option that's popular outside of NA. Propane. I don't see it coming to NA, but it's already relatively popular in Europe (more eastern part I guess). However, if the cost of propane would remain relatively low and cost of both gasoline and diesel would go up, there is a chance of wider acceptance. And that would also kill diesels - they can't run on propane, but gasoline engines can (after conversion).
So no matter how you look at it, diesel future is relatively bleak, but honestly, who the heck knows. I for one would love to see the VW TDI engines come back to USA, especially the bigger ones like 4.0TDI on SQ7. I drove the 4.2TDI A8 in UK - what a car, what an engine !!! what a shame it's not available in US .....
First, in Europe and in most of the ROW countries gasoline is substantially more expensive than diesel, not so in NA. In the view of car manufacturers, ROW is the right market for diesel cars. Not only you pay less for fuel, but your mileage is a lot better. In fact, if you look at Q7 specifically, you will notice that except in NA everywhere else it's offered ONLY in TDI versions (3.0 or 4.0). In NA, this market is a lot smaller, call it more of an enthusiast type. When the gasoline prices hit close to $5/gal. a lot more people flocked to the diesel cars, but prices came down, we had diesel gate and now car companies view this market as dead (at least for now).
Second, most traditional car manufacturers viewed hybrid and electric vehicles as a small production niche market. Tesla has uprooted that belief, and really stuck it to them. I don't particularly like it, but you do have to give props to Musk's team, they took an idea and engineered the crap out of it (within reasonable financially viable budget with a forward view on future financing and stock prices ;-) ). Unlike other car manufacturers, they not only build a vehicle, but redesigned the whole sale process and build supporting infrastructure as well (superchargers). Yes, there is still this whole range anxiety, but that only really exists for long commutes or road trips, and there is the price. But now, with model 3, that's a lot more attainable and justifiable for more people. Tesla is no longer a status symbol, or a toy. Everybody was waiting for traditional car manufacturers to jump in and start cranking Tesla killers, but that has not happened. It looks like most of them are waiting for the fad to go away. Best analogy I found so far to what's going on is the one were Sheldon Cooper is talking about an ipod:
There is also another option that's popular outside of NA. Propane. I don't see it coming to NA, but it's already relatively popular in Europe (more eastern part I guess). However, if the cost of propane would remain relatively low and cost of both gasoline and diesel would go up, there is a chance of wider acceptance. And that would also kill diesels - they can't run on propane, but gasoline engines can (after conversion).
So no matter how you look at it, diesel future is relatively bleak, but honestly, who the heck knows. I for one would love to see the VW TDI engines come back to USA, especially the bigger ones like 4.0TDI on SQ7. I drove the 4.2TDI A8 in UK - what a car, what an engine !!! what a shame it's not available in US .....
Last edited by gsobol; 08-06-2017 at 05:05 AM.
08-06-2017, 08:30 AM
#7
AudiWorld Senior Member
The cost per mile used to be cheaper with diesel. It currently is not the case. So the remaining advantage to diesel is more torque within the rpm range that we mostly drive in.
Electric solves that as they have full torque at 0 rpm. Add in a generator, gasoline or diesel or jet turbine, and range anxiety is solved. Then you only need a battery large enough for 90% of drives. Which may be 30 kWh or so.
That seems to be the direction Volvo is going.
Electric solves that as they have full torque at 0 rpm. Add in a generator, gasoline or diesel or jet turbine, and range anxiety is solved. Then you only need a battery large enough for 90% of drives. Which may be 30 kWh or so.
That seems to be the direction Volvo is going.
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08-07-2017, 04:49 AM
#10
Not sure about jet turbines being an effective alternative technology to couple with batteries. Aside form an M-1 Abrams, which actually may be tempting to drive in NYC as clearly people wouldn't cut in front of me if I was in one of those, I'm not sure what land vehicle uses a turbine engine. Besides, one of the best side effects of EVs is the lack of maintenance and avoiding the dealer is a big plus in my book.
Diesel doesn't make much sense in the US due to various factors. Diesel fuel is more expensive than unleaded, which partially offsets the better mileage for those focused on cost. Particulate and NOx emission standards are more stringent in the US than in Europe, which may be why VW resorted to tinkering with their electronics to pass U.S. tests with European engines. California is the leader in smog related emissions requirements and may ratchet up requirements again, which could kill diesel passenger cars as many states follow CA CARB requirements. Electric bills in the US are significantly lower than abroad (about 1/3 the cost vs. Germany), so the crossover between the cost effectiveness of electric vs. oil is at a lower oil price here than abroad.
Even in Europe, diesel is dying as numerous studies have pointed to the proliferation of diesel vehicles prematurely shortening thousands of lives (accuracy doesn't matter because this just sounds bad). Paris is banning diesels. London has thought off and on about banning diesel. Germany is a bit of an outlier that remains supportive, as the car lobby pushes around the gov't, but even Porsche is thinking about stopping diesel production.
As diesel gets limited to a smaller slice of the global sales market pie, throwing dollars at diesel development will be harder for manufacturers to justify and over time it may go away. Diesel won't disappear next year, but like manual transmissions, they may just become increasingly hard to find because of environmental requirements and technological evolution.
Diesel doesn't make much sense in the US due to various factors. Diesel fuel is more expensive than unleaded, which partially offsets the better mileage for those focused on cost. Particulate and NOx emission standards are more stringent in the US than in Europe, which may be why VW resorted to tinkering with their electronics to pass U.S. tests with European engines. California is the leader in smog related emissions requirements and may ratchet up requirements again, which could kill diesel passenger cars as many states follow CA CARB requirements. Electric bills in the US are significantly lower than abroad (about 1/3 the cost vs. Germany), so the crossover between the cost effectiveness of electric vs. oil is at a lower oil price here than abroad.
Even in Europe, diesel is dying as numerous studies have pointed to the proliferation of diesel vehicles prematurely shortening thousands of lives (accuracy doesn't matter because this just sounds bad). Paris is banning diesels. London has thought off and on about banning diesel. Germany is a bit of an outlier that remains supportive, as the car lobby pushes around the gov't, but even Porsche is thinking about stopping diesel production.
As diesel gets limited to a smaller slice of the global sales market pie, throwing dollars at diesel development will be harder for manufacturers to justify and over time it may go away. Diesel won't disappear next year, but like manual transmissions, they may just become increasingly hard to find because of environmental requirements and technological evolution.