USA-RET

My Mini is the same, starts in "mid" mode...I can select "green" or "Sport". If rolling in mid and I switch to sport, you can feel the engine response change noticeably, and when moving the shifter from "drive" to M/S, you again feel the gears shift differently. Around town running Sport and M/S w/ exhaust baffles open. The car is a "hoot" and loads of fun.

Hitting the gas to 1/2 throttle makes the car jump and spin up to speed quite nicely. Doing the same in the C7 would put well over the speed limit and it triple digit ticket $. Hence my desire replicate the feeling in another sports car and be able to enjoy the more aggressive driving for more than 1 second at a time. LOL

p912guy

I think your Audi dealership experience is more the norm than not. We just purchased a new (2016) Q5 for my wife (which she loves) the end of August from our local dealer. After several back and forths with the sales associate and sales manager, which included walking out twice, letting them know I was planning to shop other dealers, even several hundred miles away and mentioning I'd be in the market for car for myself in early 2017 with a new TT on my short list, we finally settled on a reasonable price. All in all, it was not a satisfying experience as they always seemed to project the attitude they were doing me a huge favor by selling me an Audi. Then yesterday while configuring a new TT Roadster, I discovered Audi has dropped their MSRP for the 2017 TT, as I would configure it, by $400 vs a 2016, which led me to check the Q5 only to discover it had a lower MSRP as a 2017 MY than our 2016 MY. Clearly Audi is making adjustments due to decreased sales related to the diesel scandal, even if the dealers aren't acting more humble.

My short list for early 2017 includes a new TT Roadster, one or two year old CPO 981 Boxster (base) and new or CPO BMW 230i/228i or M240i/M235i with the CPO 981 my current favorite. While I like the TT, I still feel it's a bit overpriced especially in comparison to the BMW options listed above, and if the Audi dealer isn't willing to work with the customer on price, even more so. Knowing I'd be looking in a few months, I joined the Audi Club of North America so I'd be eligible for 6% members discount, if nothing else.

BTW, I am coming out of a 2011 MINI Cooper S. I'd look at a JCW MINI Cooper convertible, but I think MINI is over priced too and I'm not thrilled with the latest redesign.

USA-RET

Well, in a way, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one (strictly from a misery loves company perspective) getting that treatment from the dealership.

As you mentioned, w/ the big scandal and pay-out/buy-back VW is facing, I'd expect dealerships to be a bit more humble. Apparently not. Surprised Audi/VW isn't offering some nice incentives on their new cars.....

While I love the Audi style, and leather diamond stitched seats, I'm less than enamored with the missing center stack. I read where many like the driver-centric displays. It's not a huge deal, but I recently found myself and my wife in a traffic situation where we were pretty lost on a traffic packed city express-way and trying to keep my eyes on traffic, I relied on her to watch the nav screen to let me know where the exits were and what lane I should be in. With the Audi, that would not have been possible.

As I mentioned before, the dealership attitude, the MSRP being where it is (about $7K higher than it should be IMO for the TTS and what you get). The M240i is looking pretty appealing now. Three year maintenance compared to one for the Audi). For the same money ($59K) I could include a 2017 718 Cayman w/ the automatic (not much else, but it's a Porsche) in the mix.

We have another Audi dealership close by so I will visit them also.

If I love the car, I don't mind spending the money as long as I don't feel like I'm getting taken on the deal. If BMW can discount $2100 off sticker on a 2017 M240i, that stickers at $52K, Audi should be able to beat that by a few hundred more on a TTS at $59K and still make a tidy profit.

I agree, the Mini can get pretty expensive once you start adding options. We will be buying another when we get close to the end of the warranty on this one. We will go for a fairly loaded JCW F56 which will window around $42K. Too much fun to drive and very distinctive IMO. Nothing else like it on the road. Also find the BMW influences on it to be very nice and a cut above.

Hoping to find some accommodation w/ one of the two Audi dealerships, but if not, I'm not afraid to give someone else my money that makes me a better offer. When I visit them, I will tell them I am cross shopping so they know that I'm infatuated w/ just their offering. Attitudes can change where they have to match up to a competing product. Porsche dealership at least have some right to a modicum of arrogance since rarely do you find a comparison of automobiles where the Porsche comes in second. The same cannot be said of the Audi or BMW.

We will know more on Monday or Tuesday of the coming week.

Huey52

6% below MSRP with the Audi Club North America discount (however must be a member for six months prior to purchase). Have bought my last three Audi's this way with no hassle at all. Only citing to show that you need not pay full MSRP.

I also walked in with a galves.com trade-in sheet (the outfit most dealers use) and they met same, on a similarly low volume allroad. Short money to access the system for a day.

Again, Dynamic drive select mode is where you want to be (save perhaps for suspension as prior discussed). Transmission in particular is far more responsive and I believe what you're looking for.

All the premium brand dealers do indeed treat you like they're doing you a favor, but every once in awhile you find a decent one so do shop around if necessary.

Don't throw in the Audi towel quite yet, and all the best.

ps: my TTS stays in whatever drive mode it was in when I shut 'er down. As an example, I have to consciously remember to swap it to full Comfort mode when the bride is aboard. One would think the dealers would leave it in the best 'marketing mode' but then how often do you find a really savvy dealer?

Tailwagger

I find the drone of reviewers comparing the TT to Caymans, M2s and the like to be utterly misguided. They've little in common save pricing. If price was the deciding factor, they'd be panning all these cars in favor of an F150 Raptor for its huge trunk space. But as these are perceived as sports cars, they tend to pick a price point and then declare winners on the basis of specs and track focus. If you've ever raced seriously you'd likely agree that thinking of street cars as suitable for serious track use, let alone as the primary means of evaluating a road car, is both rather tragic and comical for dozens of reasons that are too off topic to go into.

Once you drop any notion of 8-11/10ths driving from the equation, practicality starts to rear its ugly head. Do you play golf every Saturday? Unless you want your clubs clanking on the seat next to you through every corner on your early morning blast down back roads when heading to your favorite links, well, X-out the Cayman. All of a sudden decide you want to bring a new 55" LCD home to watch the Superbowl? Good luck stuffing it into the back of a 2 series. And if those things do matter, you turn to the TT as perhaps the only option after cringing over the thought of suffering an STi or wallowing in a Lexus Coupe. Now if I were lucky enough to live in a region where I didn't have a clue what snowflakes look like when they stick to a windshield and was once again young enough that my highest priority was canyon carving and hooliganism, no AWD short of an Aventador would ever blip the radar. The TT, like any other automobile, represents a set of compromises that work or don't depending on need and circumstance. Where those tradeoffs occur they have to be the ones that work for you. If they don't, any car can seem ill conceived and overpriced.

There's no question in this particular corner of Germany, from a value for $ spent POV, the R is the car to buy. I owned a '12 2dr. Mk VI, its a great car, quick, practical, reliable, decent handling. The new one is even better. The S3 represents the middle ground, trading a bit of sharpness and, in the real world, 7-10Gs for a decidedly more upscale suit wrapped around essentially the same innards. The TTS is less practical still, costs substantially more and offers up, yet again, pretty much the same drive train. And on the surface, all it gives in return is a sexier shape, a measure of exclusivity and a tenth or three to 60. Why on earth would anyone other than a dilettante buy one? Well, despite initially having an R on order, I opted out of it and the S3 as among other things I've grown weary of VW interiors and really didn't feel like replacing an A3 with what essentially is another A3. At root I choose the TTS for the way it drove and felt, which I personally found significantly more compelling than the other two. More $$$ for sure, but some things are hard to put a price on.

I seriously cross shopped the C43 and M240 xDrive and gave more than a passing look to what in my mind is the TTS's most direct competition, a 911 C4. Same silhouette, same need to overcome the physics of placing the engine outside the wheelbase. The latter was rejected as I already own a pair of 911s, but more importantly, my purpose is commuting and the thought of parking a 100+Gs in the lot I happen to frequent was just a non-starter. And then there are those golf clubs.

Having driven the M235 xD, I found it rather blah. Yet another riff from a car company that has become all too predicable and formulaic. Nice engine and driveline, and wait, whats this?!? It actually comes equipped with what you want rather than spreading across a dozen packages forcing you to spend $20k over base. Cool. But then it weighs some 400 pounds over the TT and feels in general use like more. Likely the RWD version is better in this regard, but in New England there are zero to test and as a practical matter an RWD trade in around here after 3 years would mean taking an enormous hit. The C43 cranks the fat meter up another couple of notches to the point where its an utterly different animal, really a bruiser cruiser. But then it plays that role extremely well. Flip the driver seat up to access the rear and it silently motors forward to allow access. Flip it back and it returns to the original position all on its own. Sums up the car. Seductive and geeky cool, but a bit embarrassingly bourgeois if I'm honest. In normal max-dont-scare-the-hell-out-of-the-saleman attack mode, you know where they grip the grab handle but aren't strangling it, they corner about the same which is to say quite well. But in either case there's no mistaking the extra heft, particularly so when compared to the TT. OTOH, if you value motor over chassis, either the C or M is likely a better choice. I personally found C-Coupe far more appealing of the two if for no other reason than the insufferably boring BMW interior. Like the TT, the 2 series sits in a no mans land of its own. Not lithe enough to be appealing as a point and shoot, not refined enough to be the all conquering boulevardier. That puts in the perfect slot for some, but left me with the nagging sensation that the suits, marketing and engineering couldn't agree on what they wanted build. The M2, it would seem, rectifies that... though its still a bit of a porker and likely a real handful when the snow flies. Could be fun or deadly... I'm just getting a little too old to want to find out.

My guess is that were TTs made out of CF instead of aluminum, they'd be viewed as a bargain. But of course, they wouldn't have same sense of build either. In a sporty, daily driver, road car, the TT's blend of commuting practicality, solid build, brake pedal feel and agility made it the most attractive package for what I was interested in. It also has a trait that I value highly and find quite rare, the ability to be relaxed one moment and a rabid dog the next. Unlike many highly strung, small displacement cars, you don't find yourself screaming at the blue-haired guy in the Camry V6 for doing 27 in a 40. But when the solid line turns striped, you can blast around the toothless in a flash... or not, your choice. It doesn't constantly egg you on to see how fast you can lose your driving privileges. I too owned a MINI S for a few years, an '06 I ordered up, last of the supercharged ones and a car I liked a lot. It had that happy puppy dog thing going on, always glad to see you and hey lets go for a drive where ever. For me, the TTS comes closest of any AWD car I've owned or driven to achieving that same sense of joy and playfulness.

YMMV, but despite the extremely annoying attitudes at dealerships and what does feels like paying around 4 or 5Gs too much, the above is why one guy here came to the conclusion that TTS was the one this time around. It's neither perfect nor the appropriate choice for every enthusiast, but it is rather unique and therefore strikes a particular chord with some of us. Apologies if this was more than you wanted or needed to read, but hopefully it will help a little with your decision making one way or the other. Best of luck!

Balthazar-B

Nice articulate post, Tailwagger. A TTS in roadster form would be a no-brainer for me, but as of yet Audi has not enabled its purchase in the United States. While at this point the odds of a TTRS roadster becoming available in the US seem extremely long, I'd happily spring for one of those, too. Unfortunately the base TT isn't really there with its suspension, and its engine is a bit short of satisfying.

Given I will never purchase a closed car again, I know my choices are limited, but I hope Audi doesn't push my future acquisitions to the competition because they won't import cars available pretty much everywhere else in the world.

USA-RET

Great post TW. I honestly couldn't agree more with your points. Porsche always finishing first in every comparison. The "car rags" always seem to measure vehicles against lap times and stats that have very little impact on the actual buyer. Most articles only provide some positive reinforcement for people that own the winning car and stoke forum debate amongst the "also-rans" as to how unfair the testing was or the conclusion reached..

I too am willing to pay to play as long as I think I'm getting a fair shake. Had the Audi guy said, we can certainly work something out if you're ready to buy rather than these car are rare and we don't discount. Maybe rare in the sense that the sale approach drives folks to purchase something else.

Living in Florida, the 4 wheel drive is of little consequence to me. I have the Mini for hauling the 55 inch TV from Costco (which I actually did when we bought a LG OLED 55") I had to tie the hatch down, but it fit with no overhang. This car will be a second car (in much the same way my C7 is) but hopefully providing more fun and thus more "wheel time". I do like the big hatch space in the TTS (in the same way I like that space in the C7), so it can serve as a grocery getter when out and about.

I like the Audi in most regards and if it provides the playfulness (great way to describe the MINI BTW) that my F56 provides and the dealership can knock off about $3500 from the $59K+ sticker , I think we could do business. Again assuming he gives me a fair trade on my 2800 mile pristine C7 Coupe.

As I mentioned looking for the playfulness of the Mini in the next car, so I will give the M240i a look also. Apparently setting the mode on all test drives seems to be key. TTS and M240i are different for sure, one is more a sports coupe (almost sedan like), while the TTS leans more towards the true sports car (even with the faux back seats). TTS wins on the overall size package at least for me and the big hatch w/ seats folded.

The Mini is hardly a sports car, but it sure provides the fun of one. Best way to describe it is, when accelerating it provides a few seconds of exhilaration rather than what seems like less than a second in a high HP car (like the C7). That playfulness you so aptly described is what I want in the next car.

I only throw the 718 Cayman into the mix to allow me more bargaining leverage w/ Audi. While I'm sure the Porsche is a great car, to get one with ALL the options I want would put me near $70K, and then I'm faced with the $340 oil changes. LOL At least I can tell the Audi guy I can get a new Cayman w/ more HP, 7 speed DCT, and a Bose stereo for the same as the TTS.

Again thanks for the insight. Very much appreciated.

Balthazar-B

And in about a year, you could get a TT RS, optioned, for about the same price (with more HP, 7 speed DCT, and B&O stereo). Although the oil changes should be well under $340.

Fun101

Hi USA-RET,

If you search these forums, you will find there are a lot of former MINI owners in here. There's something about the TT that brings out the "not NORMAL" in MINI drivers that seek a hot hatch and keep the fun they loved in their MINI's.

Here's my MINI bio:
2008 Mini Cooper S Clubman (manual trans)
2011 Mini Cooper S Clubman Hampton edition (manual)
2013 Mini JCW All4 Paceman (manual)
(all had lounge leather interiors)

Now:
2016 Audi TTS with 20" wheels, red callipers, etc. (mid life crisis bday present to myself)

I know EXACTLY what you are feeling given my last 3 cars. Here's my two cents for you:

I agree that nothing will give you the fun "go-cart" feeling like a MINI Cooper S or JCW. My two clubbies were like that. Very peppy, nimble, quick off the start and passes the "hooligan" test. And it sounds like you are keeping it so that's great...you can still get your kicks whenever you like (lucky ducky!). My JCW Paceman replaced a Clubman because it offered AWD (snow) and I loved the look of the car (black, red roof, red racing stripes, 19" JCW wheels, etc.)

No offence to your Vette but given your affinity for MINI it sounds like your American Muscle car is just not doing it for you.

The best way I can describe it is this: The Mini is raw and the TTS is refined. Truthfully, I do find a momentary lag sometimes in the TT which I attribute to the fact that the it's an automatic. BUT...the unbridled power in reserve more than makes up for that momentary pause (or a quick shift to S in any drive mode does the trick). In Ontario, if you are caught doing 50kms over any speed limit, you can lose you car and license for a couple weeks. (That means 150km/hr on our highways). I am accidentally hitting that too easily in this car so I'm being more careful now. My MINI's were quite capable but they felt pushed and were loud at that speed. My TTS does it like a dream. Passing is a piece of cake. That's something I enjoyed in my Clubmans that the Paceman lacked. The PM was heavy. But the TT is actually LIGHTER than my Mini Paceman so it feels notably more nimble. I'm not sure your test drives gave you a full or accurate impression of the TTS. If you put a bit of weight into your throttle, the TTS will respond beautifully.

The interior in the TTS is where it really feels like a step up in luxury over the MINI's. It's just so beautiful and comfortable and well appointed. I personally LOVE the virtual cockpit and the elimination of all the clutter in a standard dash/console. I had premium HK sound in two of the MINI's but find the B&O stereo in the Audi is considerably better.

As for discount...chatting with other recent TT owners in the Toronto area, we all received discounts. It sounds like you encountered a goof and I can see why you felt disrespected. I was disappointed in the initial figure they offered for my JCW PM but they were very respectful about it and complimentary about the car. I left and waited for them to call and was prepared with an offer that they accepted over the phone (my TT was not on the lot but was an allocation to the dealership). I probably could have negotiated a bit more but I am content with my deal. I would try a different dealer.

Best of luck in your hunt for a new car...keep us posted!!!

USA-RET

What a great reply Fun101. You hit the nail on the head when describing the "Mini experience".

I rather knew going in that neither the M235i (I test drove months ago), nor the TTS I drove last were going to feel exactly like the Mini. But since neither were properly set up for the most performance oriented experience, they both felt more refined and performed like the Mini in "Mid" mode at best, and when factoring in that extra refinement both autos almost felt like the MINI in "Green" mode. Very detached and lethargic.

Being a former Mini owner, I'm sure you remember what it felt like to be rolling along and switching to "Sport", the Jerk the car exhibits as it finds a lower gear and adjust the ECU mapping, and then when you move the shifter to the M/S setting and feeling another surge as the shift points change. A little gas pedal pressure and the car bucks forward and off you go. Fun fun.

Some semblance of the above experience is what I'm wanting to experience w/ any of the cars I'm looking at.

The C7 certainly can pin you to the seat with very little throttle, but it's all over in an instant or you risk being well over 15 MPH the speed limit. I'm not a street racer, but do like to play a bit when I drive my cars.

I really want the TTS deal to work out as it fits the niche of the sports car I want (smallish and comfortable). Beautiful interior appointments. Classy.

I almost think the TT may be closer to the MINI in performance with the lower HP w/ the higher Torque numbers (higher torque is where the fun is, not the HP). The TTS is an inversion of those numbers (higher HP w/ lower torque). The new M240i has the higher torque numbers like the base TT (although both the HP and torque of the M240i far exceeds even the TTS).

Again, not looking to get a car with the C7 performance numbers (otherwise I'd just keep my C7). My Mini w/ the JCW tune and lower unsprung wheel weight is likely 5.9 second car. Plenty fast for me. 5.3 w/ the base TT is about right in the performance niche. TTS and M240i start getting within a half tick of the C7. (Wish they offered the "S" appearance on the TT down here)

I also read about the lag displayed by the TT, which is a disappointment at that price point unless that lag can be eliminated with the sportier mode choice and the M/S gear selection (like the Mini). Around town, that's how I'd drive it anyway.

I do realize the TTRS is coming, but then I'm right back into a near super car performance realm. Basically unusable reserves under normal circumstances. Additionally, based on my experiences with the Audi dealership here, I'm confident the TT'RS will be sold well over MSRP upon it's release and likely for a year or two afterward. Happened with the C7 at some dealerships upon release and is happening with the M2 Bimmer now.

Both the M240i and Audi TT/S are viable choices for me if either can capture a portion of the fun factor of the Mini. It may come down to who wants my business more. Hoping it's the Audi dealership.

Thanks again for weighing in on my situation.