Pass on this version?
10-03-2017, 02:50 AM
#1
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Pass on this version?
Well a few comments on this new S4 power plant. The prior great supercharged 3.0 is truly a great motor. The dead stop acceleration is lag free and engine spin up is not required to launch. I understand they went to a turbo to lower weight and increase HP but gained turbo lag. If this decision was for efficiency I get it however buying a car like this a few less MPG will not impact the owners I am sure. The second interesting development is mounting the turbo in the “V”. While this change appears to be made to reduce lag and shorten flow paths I would assume it adds incredible amounts of heat to an already hot area of the motor. I frankly am apprehensive to consider this car/motor config. Proof will be on how this motor maintains proper temps in bumper to bumper traffic on a hot summer day or being driven hard. I would not be surprised if they have heat related issues. Just not a common config - those turbo chargers can glow red hot, mounting them lower allows for separation and more wind cooling in the typical spot that is already red hot. The added heat will put stress on the cooling system and all the components that are near which from the pictures there are many. I guess my only choice now will be to wait a few years to see how all are doing with this new motor.. I guess we can trust the great engineers however look how long they let the oil burn problem persist on the 4cyl or the carbon build up before they engineered the problems out.
10-03-2017, 05:07 AM
#4
10-03-2017, 05:59 AM
#5
In 2013 we bought an S4 and an SQ5. Both were supercharged. The S4 had the excellent 7-speed transmission, the SQ5 had the 8-speed, also very good.
I had hoped the new S4 would have the 7-speed, especially since the A4 is so equipped and I had been given new A4's on several service visits (keeping the loaner car for a day). I also test drove new A4 Prestige versions to consider replacing my S4.
I read the announcement for the 2018 S4 turbo. I did have some concerns that, as a turbo, the new engine would not feel as immediate as the '14 3.0T. I also lamented -- before test drives -- the loss of the 7-speed dual clutch transmission.
I also read that the new engine would have increased horsepower and, more importantly, increased torque -- the "fine print" reading the torque was available from less than 1400RPM. The supercharged engine had lower torque and a narrower RPM band -- and the torque came on at a much higher RPM than the tubo engine.
I wanted the "package" offered by the S4 -- and I knew I was going to order a Prestige version this time (my 2014 was P+ with most of the prestige options, "most" not all). Unable to test a new S4, I ordered one (actually I ordered two) exercising blind faith that the engine and transmission would not be a disappointment.
The 2018 S4 is quicker than the 2014 S4. If you're looking for an ability to accelerate more quickly than 95% (or more) of all vehicles on a typical US highway, the S4 retains that capability. The 2018 S4 will squirt through traffic (or leap from a full stop) more quickly than its immediate supercharged predecessor -- at least that has been my experience after 53,000+ miles on my 2014 S4 and 6,500+ miles on my 2018 S4. In fact, the day that I took my '14 S4 into the dealer to pick up the '18, I took the car through its paces knowing that I planned that same day to make the same "run" in the new car.
The new car is more powerful feeling and quicker than the B8 model -- a model that I had come to love (for its power, among other things) for about 45+ months.
Which brings me to the transmission. The complaints (not MY complaints) about the DSG 7-speed transmission included a lack of smoothness that customers buying a premium brand expected. I loved the 7-speed, especially when using the paddle shifters. Note: for the entire 53,000+ miles I drove with the transmission in "S" mode (but I also do this with my 2018 -- I find "D" in both cars to be ENTIRELY UNSATISFACTORY, it makes the cars feel like the parking brake is partially engaged).
The concerns I had, in advance, regarding the 8-speed Tiptronic don't exist from a seat-of-the-pants feel perspective. Even when using the paddles, the programming (I assume) makes the shifts as quick and crisp as they were with the 7-speed. If there are differences (and there certainly ought to be), I really can't identify them when I'm behind the wheel -- but 99.9% of the time I drive the car with the transmission in "S" (dynamic) mode. The .1% that I drive in "D" are unintentional gear selection and I generally feel the car as being sluggish and dare I say laggy when I drive it in "D" (but the same could be said of the 2014 S4, too.)
Regarding the placement of the turbo in the "hot V" configuration, I understand heat is the nemesis of turbos -- but I also understand that engineers have effectively addressed and mitigated these concerns not just in Audis but in other cars as well. The dual turbos in the V in the new RS5 must surely have passed durability and reliability concerns (if any) that "accountants" may have expressed with respect to warranty claims. I simply have to trust that the placement of the turbo is just not an issue, or even if it is, the issue won't impact the durability and reliability of the car until long after 100,000 miles.
The new S4 isn't perfect, and some folks here have identified some issues that certainly seem to sound like "lag" -- other posters, here on AW, (like me) have really not had performance issues that we can attribute to the turbo vs the super-charged aspiration nor have we had issues with the 8-speed that we didn't have with the 7-speed. This thread, per se, will not (hopefully) turn into another attempt to litigate the lag or lack of further (several other threads are or have already done this).
If you are a fan of supercharging, I assume there are manufacturers who -- at this time -- are using super-charging as their chosen forced induction approach. It appears that Audi is -- TODAY -- offering both super and turbo-charging. However, I also believe that the new A6 will drop supercharging in favor of turbocharging, as will subsequent generations of the Q7. As "all-new" models come out from Audi, it appears -- TODAY -- that they will use turbocharging. It would not, however, be a surprise if supercharging technology advances, that the pendulum could swing back to supercharging. Twin-charging, too, or "mechanical" turbocharging are possibilities.
If you want to take a wait-and-see approach to the new 3.0T Audi engine and its turbocharing approach to induction, you will have no detractor here. However, with no evidence -- TODAY -- suggesting the Audi switch to turbos (in the "hot V") are or will be unreliable and not durable, it seems any discussion we could have would be less of a debate than it would simply be contradiction.
If you lament the change, I must assume there are or will be examples of 2016 S4's that will come onto the market (or already have) available for purchase.
Or, you could get the latest A6, which, this year, will remain supercharged (and produce 340HP). Or, you could, perhaps, look to Jaguar, since they are -- TODAY -- keeping their engine's induction super, not turbo-charged.
I had hoped the new S4 would have the 7-speed, especially since the A4 is so equipped and I had been given new A4's on several service visits (keeping the loaner car for a day). I also test drove new A4 Prestige versions to consider replacing my S4.
I read the announcement for the 2018 S4 turbo. I did have some concerns that, as a turbo, the new engine would not feel as immediate as the '14 3.0T. I also lamented -- before test drives -- the loss of the 7-speed dual clutch transmission.
I also read that the new engine would have increased horsepower and, more importantly, increased torque -- the "fine print" reading the torque was available from less than 1400RPM. The supercharged engine had lower torque and a narrower RPM band -- and the torque came on at a much higher RPM than the tubo engine.
I wanted the "package" offered by the S4 -- and I knew I was going to order a Prestige version this time (my 2014 was P+ with most of the prestige options, "most" not all). Unable to test a new S4, I ordered one (actually I ordered two) exercising blind faith that the engine and transmission would not be a disappointment.
The 2018 S4 is quicker than the 2014 S4. If you're looking for an ability to accelerate more quickly than 95% (or more) of all vehicles on a typical US highway, the S4 retains that capability. The 2018 S4 will squirt through traffic (or leap from a full stop) more quickly than its immediate supercharged predecessor -- at least that has been my experience after 53,000+ miles on my 2014 S4 and 6,500+ miles on my 2018 S4. In fact, the day that I took my '14 S4 into the dealer to pick up the '18, I took the car through its paces knowing that I planned that same day to make the same "run" in the new car.
The new car is more powerful feeling and quicker than the B8 model -- a model that I had come to love (for its power, among other things) for about 45+ months.
Which brings me to the transmission. The complaints (not MY complaints) about the DSG 7-speed transmission included a lack of smoothness that customers buying a premium brand expected. I loved the 7-speed, especially when using the paddle shifters. Note: for the entire 53,000+ miles I drove with the transmission in "S" mode (but I also do this with my 2018 -- I find "D" in both cars to be ENTIRELY UNSATISFACTORY, it makes the cars feel like the parking brake is partially engaged).
The concerns I had, in advance, regarding the 8-speed Tiptronic don't exist from a seat-of-the-pants feel perspective. Even when using the paddles, the programming (I assume) makes the shifts as quick and crisp as they were with the 7-speed. If there are differences (and there certainly ought to be), I really can't identify them when I'm behind the wheel -- but 99.9% of the time I drive the car with the transmission in "S" (dynamic) mode. The .1% that I drive in "D" are unintentional gear selection and I generally feel the car as being sluggish and dare I say laggy when I drive it in "D" (but the same could be said of the 2014 S4, too.)
Regarding the placement of the turbo in the "hot V" configuration, I understand heat is the nemesis of turbos -- but I also understand that engineers have effectively addressed and mitigated these concerns not just in Audis but in other cars as well. The dual turbos in the V in the new RS5 must surely have passed durability and reliability concerns (if any) that "accountants" may have expressed with respect to warranty claims. I simply have to trust that the placement of the turbo is just not an issue, or even if it is, the issue won't impact the durability and reliability of the car until long after 100,000 miles.
The new S4 isn't perfect, and some folks here have identified some issues that certainly seem to sound like "lag" -- other posters, here on AW, (like me) have really not had performance issues that we can attribute to the turbo vs the super-charged aspiration nor have we had issues with the 8-speed that we didn't have with the 7-speed. This thread, per se, will not (hopefully) turn into another attempt to litigate the lag or lack of further (several other threads are or have already done this).
If you are a fan of supercharging, I assume there are manufacturers who -- at this time -- are using super-charging as their chosen forced induction approach. It appears that Audi is -- TODAY -- offering both super and turbo-charging. However, I also believe that the new A6 will drop supercharging in favor of turbocharging, as will subsequent generations of the Q7. As "all-new" models come out from Audi, it appears -- TODAY -- that they will use turbocharging. It would not, however, be a surprise if supercharging technology advances, that the pendulum could swing back to supercharging. Twin-charging, too, or "mechanical" turbocharging are possibilities.
If you want to take a wait-and-see approach to the new 3.0T Audi engine and its turbocharing approach to induction, you will have no detractor here. However, with no evidence -- TODAY -- suggesting the Audi switch to turbos (in the "hot V") are or will be unreliable and not durable, it seems any discussion we could have would be less of a debate than it would simply be contradiction.
If you lament the change, I must assume there are or will be examples of 2016 S4's that will come onto the market (or already have) available for purchase.
Or, you could get the latest A6, which, this year, will remain supercharged (and produce 340HP). Or, you could, perhaps, look to Jaguar, since they are -- TODAY -- keeping their engine's induction super, not turbo-charged.
10-03-2017, 06:17 AM
#6
AudiWorld Senior Member
If you want to pass on this version and try something else, that is your prerogative as a customer.
But considering the trends in the industry, I think it would be just as naive to think that Audi will reinstate a supercharger in a future S4 as it would be to think they'll someday drop a V8 in one again, so if the turbocharger as a technology is your main gripe/concern I'd recommend you try to find a like-new B8.5 and take as good of care of it as you possibly can because it's the end of an era and I wouldn't be surprised if the next S4 redesign (B10) adds a hybrid system a la the MB S 550e / BMW 340e.
As for the current S4 -- yeah, there's some hesitation, but the B9 is first S4 I've personally driven and I have zero complaints. Put it in S mode and it hauls ***.
But considering the trends in the industry, I think it would be just as naive to think that Audi will reinstate a supercharger in a future S4 as it would be to think they'll someday drop a V8 in one again, so if the turbocharger as a technology is your main gripe/concern I'd recommend you try to find a like-new B8.5 and take as good of care of it as you possibly can because it's the end of an era and I wouldn't be surprised if the next S4 redesign (B10) adds a hybrid system a la the MB S 550e / BMW 340e.
As for the current S4 -- yeah, there's some hesitation, but the B9 is first S4 I've personally driven and I have zero complaints. Put it in S mode and it hauls ***.
10-03-2017, 08:16 AM
#7
I would NOT be surprised if subsequent S4's (or some other S's) don't adopt the following:
4-cylinders
twin-charging or mechanical turbo-charging
hybrid powertrains.
Only -- and this is a stretch -- ONLY if supercharging technology has an almost miraculous advance, would it be even remotely possible to see a solely super-charged approach. Of course, as certain of this as I am, I remain: Often wrong.
I believe Volvo uses a twin-charge approach, and in their top models the 4-cylinder engine is both twin-charged AND sports an electric helper-motor too.
I read there are examples of advances in mechanical turbocharging -- which use an electric motor to spool up the turbo to speed ("atomic batteries to power" -- Adam West) until sufficiently able to maintain the turbo's RPM without the use of an electric motor. Further, to breathe life into the good-ole internal combustion engine, I also read about the approach of further increasing the compression ratio of a modern gasoline engine. Apparently this approach adds power and efficiency (implying better -- lower -- emissions, too).
I agree with Brian -- if you must have super-charging AND in an Audi, a B8.5 is your best hope. Frankly, those of us in B9's (for the most part) who have had both iterations, probably don't understand or even if we do, don't relate to your concerns. This [2018 S4] is the best turbo car I've ever driven -- and it IS BETTER than my beloved 2014 S4's approach to forced induction.
4-cylinders
twin-charging or mechanical turbo-charging
hybrid powertrains.
Only -- and this is a stretch -- ONLY if supercharging technology has an almost miraculous advance, would it be even remotely possible to see a solely super-charged approach. Of course, as certain of this as I am, I remain: Often wrong.
I believe Volvo uses a twin-charge approach, and in their top models the 4-cylinder engine is both twin-charged AND sports an electric helper-motor too.
I read there are examples of advances in mechanical turbocharging -- which use an electric motor to spool up the turbo to speed ("atomic batteries to power" -- Adam West) until sufficiently able to maintain the turbo's RPM without the use of an electric motor. Further, to breathe life into the good-ole internal combustion engine, I also read about the approach of further increasing the compression ratio of a modern gasoline engine. Apparently this approach adds power and efficiency (implying better -- lower -- emissions, too).
I agree with Brian -- if you must have super-charging AND in an Audi, a B8.5 is your best hope. Frankly, those of us in B9's (for the most part) who have had both iterations, probably don't understand or even if we do, don't relate to your concerns. This [2018 S4] is the best turbo car I've ever driven -- and it IS BETTER than my beloved 2014 S4's approach to forced induction.
Last edited by markcincinnati; 10-03-2017 at 08:20 AM.
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10-03-2017, 09:38 AM
#8
AudiWorld Member
As a former B7 S4 owner, I skipped B8 and B8.5. It just wasn't enough of an upgrade. the 2018 B9 S4 was (and after 9 years of no car payments, I could do it)
I still miss the linear power delivery and rumble of the V8 (and the insane notion of a 4.2 V8 in a warmed up A4), but I don't miss the nose-heavy understeer, and poor gas consumption. I also miss the Recaro seats a bit, but maybe after 10 years, they had just molded to my rear?
There is never a good time to buy new evolving technology. The automobile is evolving. There will be a 2019 S4. maybe even an RS5 Sportback in the USA? Just like phones, cameras, TV's and other consumer goods, new ones keep getting better (this may not apply to washing machines and refrigerators)
I still miss the linear power delivery and rumble of the V8 (and the insane notion of a 4.2 V8 in a warmed up A4), but I don't miss the nose-heavy understeer, and poor gas consumption. I also miss the Recaro seats a bit, but maybe after 10 years, they had just molded to my rear?
There is never a good time to buy new evolving technology. The automobile is evolving. There will be a 2019 S4. maybe even an RS5 Sportback in the USA? Just like phones, cameras, TV's and other consumer goods, new ones keep getting better (this may not apply to washing machines and refrigerators)
10-03-2017, 10:38 AM
#9
AudiWorld Super User
As a former B7 S4 owner, I skipped B8 and B8.5. It just wasn't enough of an upgrade. the 2018 B9 S4 was (and after 9 years of no car payments, I could do it)
I still miss the linear power delivery and rumble of the V8 (and the insane notion of a 4.2 V8 in a warmed up A4), but I don't miss the nose-heavy understeer, and poor gas consumption. I also miss the Recaro seats a bit, but maybe after 10 years, they had just molded to my rear?
There is never a good time to buy new evolving technology. The automobile is evolving. There will be a 2019 S4. maybe even an RS5 Sportback in the USA? Just like phones, cameras, TV's and other consumer goods, new ones keep getting better (this may not apply to washing machines and refrigerators)
I still miss the linear power delivery and rumble of the V8 (and the insane notion of a 4.2 V8 in a warmed up A4), but I don't miss the nose-heavy understeer, and poor gas consumption. I also miss the Recaro seats a bit, but maybe after 10 years, they had just molded to my rear?
There is never a good time to buy new evolving technology. The automobile is evolving. There will be a 2019 S4. maybe even an RS5 Sportback in the USA? Just like phones, cameras, TV's and other consumer goods, new ones keep getting better (this may not apply to washing machines and refrigerators)
GM just announced that they will go fully electric across their entire portfolio. It'll be a combination of Hybrid, Fuel Cell and BEV. Audi is investing $20 billion in electrifying their lineup. Everything from Audi, Bentley to Lambo will have at least one electrified model soon. Porsche is also going in this direction. That's the future, whether we like it or not. I think future cars will be boring. The beautiful thing about the ICE is that there are so many variations and each one brings a unique character to a car. That's not the case with electric motors. Motors are pretty boring. There is no character. Instant torque and whirring away, that's basically it. Much like a roller coaster. The biggest draw at the moment is the insane acceleration for something like the Tesla P100D, but that's gonna get old fast IMO and beyond the budget for many. If you think about what differentiated cars in the past, it was largely the engine. That flat boxer 6 is what makes a Porsche a Porsche or those Ferrari V12s etc. or even the high revving 4.2 V8 in the RS5 and of course that sweet 5.2 V10 in the R8 and Huracan. Ferrari at the moment has some exciting turbo engines, though. The 448's biturbo variable torque 8000 rpm engine is a beautiful thing and maintains much of the character of a naturally aspirated engine.
My biggest disappointed with FI engines is that they deliver all the torque they have low down, so there is no incentive to chase the redline, but chasing the redline is why I and others buy performance cars. That's part of it. The key to the Ferrari engine is the variable torque delivery. They don't deliver all the torque low down, but the faster the engine revs the more torque is being delivered, so there is an incentive to chase the redline. That's what gives a car character. I realize I'm talking exotics here, whereas an S4 is mostly a daily driver. However, the one thing I like most about my RS5 is that it is a comfortable daily driver with a purring smooth V8, but when you open it up in the canyons, it turns into a beast. That trait is getting lost with cars in this segment and will be limited to super sports cars like the R8 etc., but the R8 is not exactly a practical daily driver.
Last edited by superswiss; 10-03-2017 at 10:43 AM.
10-03-2017, 04:15 PM
#10
I wasn't a big fan of the switch to a turbo engine for the same reason, lack of instant power, but by all accounts it's been practically eliminated. The only way you'll get your traditional power delivery is through a NA car manufacturer. I'd love to have a GT350, and could afford it, but a high-revving V8 just doesn't drive well in bumper to bumper traffic (I currently daily-drive a B7 S4). Not to mention build quality sucks.
I'm ready for the change, and like other's I'll be making the jump from B7 to B9 hopefully soon as I just don't see a reasonable alternative.
I also get the point on potential design flaws, and while there may be some, Audi has been putting out some great powerplants with little to no issues lately. I went and read Alfa Romeo forums the other day and after that the issues I see on the Audi forums pale in comparison. You can always be late adopter and pick up a model after a couple iterations, but I believe the S4 has been out for over a year (in Germany) and doesn't seem like a ton of issues are coming up yet.
I'm ready for the change, and like other's I'll be making the jump from B7 to B9 hopefully soon as I just don't see a reasonable alternative.
I also get the point on potential design flaws, and while there may be some, Audi has been putting out some great powerplants with little to no issues lately. I went and read Alfa Romeo forums the other day and after that the issues I see on the Audi forums pale in comparison. You can always be late adopter and pick up a model after a couple iterations, but I believe the S4 has been out for over a year (in Germany) and doesn't seem like a ton of issues are coming up yet.