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Need help with 02 A6 3.0, cam problems (possibly more?)

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Old 07-26-2014, 09:48 AM   #1
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Default Need help with 02 A6 3.0, cam problems (possibly more?)

Hey everyone, new guy here. Hopefully you guys can help me with my A6.

So recently I acquired an 02 A6 with around 122k miles. I bought the vehicle from the original owner with the problems that it currently has in hopes I could fix it.

So here's some info about the car and the problem:

It's an '02 A6 3.0 Quattro (4B2 AVK). The people that I bought it from only ran 5w30 non synthetic (syn blend most likely) through it.
The engine has a rattle to it when it's running (oil pressure problem perhaps?).
It fires right up every time and seems to run ok, but not great. I didn't want to rev it past 2k to prevent any further damage to the engine.

Here's the codes it's throwing:
p0300 - random multiple misfire.
p0302 - misfire cyl 2
p0303 - misfire cyl 3
I assume those are because of the camshaft codes; which are:

p0345 (16729) - Cam position sensor 2 malfunction.
p0365 (16749) - Cam position sensor 3 malfunction
p0391 (16775) - Cam position sensor 3 incorrect signal.

I've searched a bit and this seems like a fairly common issue, so I was hoping you Audi guru's could shed some light on the subject and I could get this car up and running.

Any help pointing me in the right direction is GREATLY appreciated.
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:08 PM   #2
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Hi, Your car has misfiring code and call to Audi dealer about Ignition coil recall for your car. you have to drive to them for another recall? may be. also, Do you know when T/B done?
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:37 AM   #3
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Hi, Your car has misfiring code and call to Audi dealer about Ignition coil recall for your car. you have to drive to them for another recall? may be. also, Do you know when T/B done?
Supposedly the timing belt was done not too long ago according to what the previous owner told me.

I'll get a hold of the dealer Monday and see if it was done. Although, I believe the misfiring is due to the camshaft's not being where they're supposed to be.

However, the thing that bothers me most is the rattling noise from within the engine.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that when the engine is running, I'm getting a low oil pressure(Red oil can) message on the display.
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:53 AM   #4
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Supposedly the timing belt was done not too long ago according to what the previous owner told me.

I'll get a hold of the dealer Monday and see if it was done. Although, I believe the misfiring is due to the camshaft's not being where they're supposed to be.

However, the thing that bothers me most is the rattling noise from within the engine.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that when the engine is running, I'm getting a low oil pressure(Red oil can) message on the display.
Well that isn't good.. You may have quite a bit of engine damage already if running it with oil pressure light on.

The noise is because there is no oil pressure and your cams are running dry.

There is very little you can do without major tearing down of the motor if it is true low oil pressure condition, and based on the noise I think you do.

All you can do.Is replace the oil filter and hope it was plugged. Maybe check the oil pressure relief valve if the audi even has one.

Other than that the engine sounds like toast

I don't. Want to be disrespectful but telling us you think the rattle is because the cams are mis timed and you have no oil pressure is looking past the obvious

Your hydraulic tensioner aren't pumping up and your chain is rattling and throwing off cams.
Fix your oil pressure.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Airbag View Post
Well that isn't good.. You may have quite a bit of engine damage already if running it with oil pressure light on.

The noise is because there is no oil pressure and your cams are running dry.

There is very little you can do without major tearing down of the motor if it is true low oil pressure condition, and based on the noise I think you do.

All you can do.Is replace the oil filter and hope it was plugged. Maybe check the oil pressure relief valve if the audi even has one.

Other than that the engine sounds like toast

I don't. Want to be disrespectful but telling us you think the rattle is because the cams are mis timed and you have no oil pressure is looking past the obvious

Your hydraulic tensioner aren't pumping up and your chain is rattling and throwing off cams.
Fix your oil pressure.
No disrespect taken.
This engine doesn't have a chain between the cams, the T-belt drives both cams.
Pulled one of the valve covers yesterday and it seems as though there's oil on the head, not very much, but there is some there (the car hasn't been started in about a week).
The Variable cam actuators are electronic, however, they do need oil pressure to work.
The oil was changed VERY recently by the previous owner and the correct weight and spec oil was used (Service Pro 5w40, meets even Mercedes 229.5 spec --the most difficult approval rating of ANY manufacturer out there). As a matter of fact, it's still golden since there's maybe 5 miles on it.

There is a TSB that mentions something about the bolts on the cam pulleys loosening, or falling out. And another that mentions something about the o-rings on the actuators leaking and resulting in insufficient oil pressure to actuate the Variable cam timing.
I'm waiting on the timing kit from amazon that has the crank lock pin and the cam holders before I drop the oil pan.

Also, for what it's worth, I am a certified mechanic, however, almost no experience with Audi's.
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by P-Zero View Post
No disrespect taken.
This engine doesn't have a chain between the cams, the T-belt drives both cams.
Pulled one of the valve covers yesterday and it seems as though there's oil on the head, not very much, but there is some there (the car hasn't been started in about a week).
The Variable cam actuators are electronic, however, they do need oil pressure to work.
The oil was changed VERY recently by the previous owner and the correct weight and spec oil was used (Service Pro 5w40, meets even Mercedes 229.5 spec --the most difficult approval rating of ANY manufacturer out there). As a matter of fact, it's still golden since there's maybe 5 miles on it.

There is a TSB that mentions something about the bolts on the cam pulleys loosening, or falling out. And another that mentions something about the o-rings on the actuators leaking and resulting in insufficient oil pressure to actuate the Variable cam timing.
I'm waiting on the timing kit from amazon that has the crank lock pin and the cam holders before I drop the oil pan.

Also, for what it's worth, I am a certified mechanic, however, almost no experience with Audi's.
Not trying to thread-jack Airbag, P-Zero you are very correct about the cam timing system on the 3.0 and it's actually quite refreshing to read from a member who researched the engine.

As long if the exhaust cam lobes are intact "your golden" and the big concern is the low oil pressure for sure, sounds like your on the right track so far dropping the pan but after that if the results are normal I'd look into the adjuster seals and make sure crankcase vent system is clear

Good luck!
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Last edited by jcman; 07-28-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 07-27-2014, 04:13 PM   #7
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Not trying to thread-jack Airbag, P-Zero you are very correct about the cam timing system on the 3.0 and it's actually quite refreshing to read from a member about who researched the engine.

As long if the exhaust cam lobes are intact "your golden" and the big concern is the low oil pressure for sure, sounds like your on the right track so far dropping the pan but after that if the results are normal I'd look into the adjuster seals and make sure crankcase vent system is clear

Good luck!
Hey thanks JC!
I try to find out as much as I can about an engine before I tear into them. The old push-rod/non VVT/VCT engines were fairly straightforward. All of the newer ones with variable valve train can be quite tricky. On some, if you remove the actuators from the heads, you HAVE to replace the head (Nissan/Infiniti).

I was reading in a Technical Service Bulletin (not sure which TSB #) there may be heavy wear on some of the lifters and lobes. I only pulled the valve cover off of the passenger side head (not sure if that's bank 1 or 2), and from what I could see of the lobes, they look perfectly fine. There is a lifter that may be suspect, but I have to pull the cams to verify. Most of them looked very good.
It's kind of strange that a vehicle with this many miles (122k) would have low oil pressure problems.
Do you know the procedure to check the oil pressure? I'm assuming that you pull the oil pressure sending unit and hook up an oil pressure gauge; just wondering if Audi has an official procedure to check it.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:00 PM   #8
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Someone had an issue recently where they had to get under the car with the pan off and poke stuff up through the holes sounds drastic but what do you have to lose. You don't want to run it with low oil pressure

Pz sorry for misleading you with tensioner. Didn't notice the 3.0 duh.... Both cams run off belt.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P-Zero View Post
Hey thanks JC!
I try to find out as much as I can about an engine before I tear into them. The old push-rod/non VVT/VCT engines were fairly straightforward. All of the newer ones with variable valve train can be quite tricky. On some, if you remove the actuators from the heads, you HAVE to replace the head (Nissan/Infiniti).

I was reading in a Technical Service Bulletin (not sure which TSB #) there may be heavy wear on some of the lifters and lobes. I only pulled the valve cover off of the passenger side head (not sure if that's bank 1 or 2), and from what I could see of the lobes, they look perfectly fine. There is a lifter that may be suspect, but I have to pull the cams to verify. Most of them looked very good.
It's kind of strange that a vehicle with this many miles (122k) would have low oil pressure problems.
Do you know the procedure to check the oil pressure? I'm assuming that you pull the oil pressure sending unit and hook up an oil pressure gauge; just wondering if Audi has an official procedure to check it.
Here is a pdf on that procedure before you drop the pan.
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File Type: pdf AVK oil pressure check.pdf (160.3 KB, 13 views)
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:28 AM   #10
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Your issue sure sounds oil pressure related. Noise, cam codes oil light. Remove the lower oil pan. I have seen 3.0s fill the pan up with sludge. I also have seen the pipes running from the oil pump to the block, the o-rings fail and bleed off oil pressure. Good luck stop running it before it destroys something lol
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbag View Post
Someone had an issue recently where they had to get under the car with the pan off and poke stuff up through the holes sounds drastic but what do you have to lose. You don't want to run it with low oil pressure

Pz sorry for misleading you with tensioner. Didn't notice the 3.0 duh.... Both cams run off belt.
No worries man. There is a TSB about the seals failing around the cam's actuator block (the piece right behind the cam gears). I've gotten the same advice from some friends that are techs about the chain. I was expecting to see a chain when I removed the valve cover, you could imagine reaction when there wasn't one there.

I'm definitely going to drop the pan one way or another. It very well could be plugged up since the previous owners weren't timely with their oil changes and used regular 5w30 oil. There was some gunk/sludge buildup on the heads, so it couldn't hurt to clean it out. May try an old trick using ATF to clean it.
Quote:
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Here is a pdf on that procedure before you drop the pan.
Thanks a bunch JC!
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Originally Posted by Prospeeder View Post
Your issue sure sounds oil pressure related. Noise, cam codes oil light. Remove the lower oil pan. I have seen 3.0s fill the pan up with sludge. I also have seen the pipes running from the oil pump to the block, the o-rings fail and bleed off oil pressure. Good luck stop running it before it destroys something lol
Not driving the A6 until it's fixed. Was planning on using the A6 as my winter car. I have an E55 for the summer.
And thanks a bunch for the tips! I'm going to drop the lower pan and see what's up with it after I check oil pressure. Hopefully it doesn't need a pump. If it does, that may be the final nail in the coffin for this thing since the pumps are $1500!
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:13 PM   #12
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Have never seen them need a pump. Probably just full of sludge and those orings for the pipes from the pump to the block are hard and leaking off pressure. Dont try adding anything to the oil. When you get to interact with sludge or coke, you will instantly realize, NOTHING but a scraper with touch it, no chemical is gonna dissolve it, and if it does. God you really want that **** chewing through the oil pump and engine lol.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:23 PM   #13
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Have never seen them need a pump. Probably just full of sludge and those orings for the pipes from the pump to the block are hard and leaking off pressure. Dont try adding anything to the oil. When you get to interact with sludge or coke, you will instantly realize, NOTHING but a scraper with touch it, no chemical is gonna dissolve it, and if it does. God you really want that **** chewing through the oil pump and engine lol.
Well that's great news then!

The old "trick" is draining out all of the old oil and filling the engine with just regular ATF (Dextron III), then running it for approximately 10-15 minutes @ idle. Since it's oil based and has A TON of detergents in it, it cleans out engines pretty well without the risk of engine damage.

Have done this on numerous engines with great results actually.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:57 PM   #14
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Well that's great news then!

The old "trick" is draining out all of the old oil and filling the engine with just regular ATF (Dextron III), then running it for approximately 10-15 minutes @ idle. Since it's oil based and has A TON of detergents in it, it cleans out engines pretty well without the risk of engine damage.

Have done this on numerous engines with great results actually.
Well, now since engines run such high temperatures, the oil actually cooks to a gritty carbon and is untouched by such methods. Back in the day, engines ran cooler, and the sludge was soft and easily moved. The stuff in engines these days is hard as rock. I have soaked the stuff in brake cleaner and its stills a hard mass of crap lol.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:01 PM   #15
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Well, now since engines run such high temperatures, the oil actually cooks to a gritty carbon and is untouched by such methods. Back in the day, engines ran cooler, and the sludge was soft and easily moved. The stuff in engines these days is hard as rock. I have soaked the stuff in brake cleaner and its stills a hard mass of crap lol.
Just redid an old '84 Jeep CJ. Man, that thing had 1/4" of hardened sludge all over the inside of the block. Nothing was cutting through that. I had to use scrapers everywhere. The end result was pretty nice. Have a look.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:56 PM   #16
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Well, now since engines run such high temperatures, the oil actually cooks to a gritty carbon and is untouched by such methods. Back in the day, engines ran cooler, and the sludge was soft and easily moved. The stuff in engines these days is hard as rock. I have soaked the stuff in brake cleaner and its stills a hard mass of crap lol.
Modern engines actually run cooler (Or A should say, with less hot spots to cook the oil) than old engines.
Heavy deposits came from running the oil WAY too long, not from the average temps.

All the crap about new/small engine being harder on oil, is from the oil companies trying to scare people into more oil changes with "their" special oil.

I have heard all sorts of "magic" engine cleaners form ATF to diesel fuel to mineral spirits.
In the end if the deposits are enough to stop proper oil flow, or cause local overheating problems, none of the tricks really work, and if the problem is not that bad, no one has before and after pictures to show it really did anything.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:57 PM   #17
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Just redid an old '84 Jeep CJ. Man, that thing had 1/4" of hardened sludge all over the inside of the block. Nothing was cutting through that. I had to use scrapers everywhere. The end result was pretty nice. Have a look.
Looks nice.

Makes me miss my '56 and the '48 I built for a friend.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:31 AM   #18
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No worries man. There is a TSB about the seals failing around the cam's actuator block (the piece right behind the cam gears). I've gotten the same advice from some friends that are techs about the chain. I was expecting to see a chain when I removed the valve cover, you could imagine reaction when there wasn't one there.

I'm definitely going to drop the pan one way or another. It very well could be plugged up since the previous owners weren't timely with their oil changes and used regular 5w30 oil. There was some gunk/sludge buildup on the heads, so it couldn't hurt to clean it out. May try an old trick using ATF to clean it.

Thanks a bunch JC!

Not driving the A6 until it's fixed. Was planning on using the A6 as my winter car. I have an E55 for the summer.
And thanks a bunch for the tips! I'm going to drop the lower pan and see what's up with it after I check oil pressure. Hopefully it doesn't need a pump. If it does, that may be the final nail in the coffin for this thing since the pumps are $1500!
i have heard that with the ATF

too bad the other guy isnt on here .. he poked up through the block and got about 5 litres in the face.

bet he could tell you exactly what to look for ... im sure he has the oil out of his nostrils by now ..
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:13 AM   #19
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Modern engines actually run cooler (Or A should say, with less hot spots to cook the oil) than old engines.
Heavy deposits came from running the oil WAY too long, not from the average temps.

All the crap about new/small engine being harder on oil, is from the oil companies trying to scare people into more oil changes with "their" special oil.

I have heard all sorts of "magic" engine cleaners form ATF to diesel fuel to mineral spirits.
In the end if the deposits are enough to stop proper oil flow, or cause local overheating problems, none of the tricks really work, and if the problem is not that bad, no one has before and after pictures to show it really did anything.
Sorry your wrong. The 1.8T is a good example of running high temps and having hot spots cooking the oil. Also Volvo 5 cylinder turbos, Saab 2.3 and 2.0T engines and Toyota V6's and Rav 4 2.0s, BMW V8s, Chrysler 2.7 V6. All from hot spots cooking down the oil they recommend to leave in engines too long. They run the cylinder heads much hotter to try and meet emissions and the oil cooks in the heads and turns to grit. Newer engines DO have greater demand on oil, There are way more moving parts with VVT, cylinder deactivation, valve lift control, large OHC timing chain setups, , much higher oil temperatures, and way to long of oil intervals ect ect. You are very mistaken if you think newer engines are easier on oil.

And your theroy on Companies wanting oil changes sooner?? Really dude, do some research or open your eyes. Auto manufactures are stretching oil changes so far out its destroying engines before 100k miles. BMW is now up to 20k oil changes. Ya thats gonna last 200k.....All companies are trying to tout thier oil going 10k+ miles.

I do agree the people thinking dumping ATF in the oil or flushes do something have never proven it did anything. Even if it did, It just put it all in the oil pickup screen lol.
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Last edited by Prospeeder; 07-29-2014 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:30 AM   #20
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Believe what you like. Oil has changed a little and engines have changed a lot allowing 10K, 13K, 15K and now even 20K change intervals when not that many years ago 3K was the norm and 5K was "long", and 7.5K was amazing.

Lots of cars with extended change intervals run just fine well past 150K and even well past 200K miles.

What takes cars off the road these days due to mileage is transmissions, and other expensive items, not engine rebuilds.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:30 AM
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