Why isn't anyone talking about Carbon Buildup?
10-21-2014, 08:49 AM
#1
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Why isn't anyone talking about Carbon Buildup?
Looks Like I'll have to get one of these:
FMCT2 - Oil Separator/Catch Can Service Kit - ES#2550145
Here's some background for folks who weren't aware of the issues with German DI engines.
In their efforts to wring more power and efficiency from the internal combustion engine, automakers are increasingly turning to gasoline direct-injection technology – also known as GDI or DI. Originally developed to produce more economical and quieter combustion for diesel engines, DI is inherently more efficient and helps generate more power than port injection. And advances in engineering and engine management, fueled by fierce industry competition and consumer demand, are making DI technology more cost-effective than ever
But there has been a dark side to the technology: carbon build-up around intake valves that, over time, can degrade power and efficiency, eroding the bonus DI is supposed to provide. While there’s evidence that the most recent designs and technical enhancements have greatly reduced the issue, carbon buildup has been a distinct and well-documented issue in some DI engines from a variety of manufacturers over the last few years.
A U.S. patent application filed in 2002 by Volkswagen AG explains the DI-engine carbon-deposit dilemma this way: “Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber…suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits…especially in the neck region of the intake valves.”
This document describes these deposits as a sticky coating of oil and fuel constituents that, once formed, serves as a base for further deposits, creating “a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases.” Excessive carbon deposits “have extremely negative effects,” the patent application concludes, citing significant performance losses, sporadic ignition failures
Ameer Haider, GM’s assistant chief engineer for V6 engines, certainly knows the problem, telling*AutoObserver, “DI engines are prone to forming oily deposits on the intake valves, unlike in port fuel-injected engines, where a constant spray of fuel into the port allows any deposits to wash away. With DI engines, the fuel gets injected directly into the combustion chamber, so there isn't a chance for the deposits to wash away.
The main purpose of VW’s patent application was to propose a fix for DI engine carbon deposits: specifically, applying “a catalytic surface” to the engine valves that “counteracts the formation of carbon deposits.” But nearly 10 years later, there’s ample evidence that this and other potential solutions have failed.
A Google search for “direct injection carbon build up” reveals a flood of owner complaints about the issue across vehicle brands and models, including particularly active threads for the*VWVortex.com - carbon build up, the*Lexus 4GR-FSE Engine Carbon Build-up (merged threads) - Club Lexus Forums, and a variety of Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread
Tony Chick, principal engineer at European Performance Labs in Stratford, Connecticut, has made a career of repairing and rebuilding high-performance engines from Audi, Porsche AG and BMW, among others and his operation has garnered a reputation among car enthusiasts as a go-to place for cleaning DI engines that have become choked with carbon. Chick thinks the problem for most affected engines can be traced to the breathing system – specifically, the design of its crankcase ventilation and exhaust-gas recirculation components.
All modern gasoline engines return some crankcase and exhaust gases back through the intake manifold in order to help control emissions, but, according to Chick, some exhaust-gas recirculation designs are “dirtier" than others. Some, he said, are less-effective at preventing the passage of tiny bits of oil, carbon and other particulates that eventually get baked onto the intake ports and valves.
Info on this kit:
FMCT2 - Oil Separator/Catch Can Service Kit - ES#2550145
This kit incorporates everything necessary to completely bypass the stock PCV system while actually providing increased operative function. This kit is recirculating in design so as to maintain emissions compliance, however, it will capture all of the aerated oil, fuel, and water vapor contained in the blow-by gasses that would otherwise enter the intake tract and potentially contribute to deposits on the intake valves, thereby keeping the intake system clean and the engine performing optimally long-term.*
FMCT2 - Oil Separator/Catch Can Service Kit - ES#2550145
Here's some background for folks who weren't aware of the issues with German DI engines.
In their efforts to wring more power and efficiency from the internal combustion engine, automakers are increasingly turning to gasoline direct-injection technology – also known as GDI or DI. Originally developed to produce more economical and quieter combustion for diesel engines, DI is inherently more efficient and helps generate more power than port injection. And advances in engineering and engine management, fueled by fierce industry competition and consumer demand, are making DI technology more cost-effective than ever
But there has been a dark side to the technology: carbon build-up around intake valves that, over time, can degrade power and efficiency, eroding the bonus DI is supposed to provide. While there’s evidence that the most recent designs and technical enhancements have greatly reduced the issue, carbon buildup has been a distinct and well-documented issue in some DI engines from a variety of manufacturers over the last few years.
A U.S. patent application filed in 2002 by Volkswagen AG explains the DI-engine carbon-deposit dilemma this way: “Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber…suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits…especially in the neck region of the intake valves.”
This document describes these deposits as a sticky coating of oil and fuel constituents that, once formed, serves as a base for further deposits, creating “a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases.” Excessive carbon deposits “have extremely negative effects,” the patent application concludes, citing significant performance losses, sporadic ignition failures
Ameer Haider, GM’s assistant chief engineer for V6 engines, certainly knows the problem, telling*AutoObserver, “DI engines are prone to forming oily deposits on the intake valves, unlike in port fuel-injected engines, where a constant spray of fuel into the port allows any deposits to wash away. With DI engines, the fuel gets injected directly into the combustion chamber, so there isn't a chance for the deposits to wash away.
The main purpose of VW’s patent application was to propose a fix for DI engine carbon deposits: specifically, applying “a catalytic surface” to the engine valves that “counteracts the formation of carbon deposits.” But nearly 10 years later, there’s ample evidence that this and other potential solutions have failed.
A Google search for “direct injection carbon build up” reveals a flood of owner complaints about the issue across vehicle brands and models, including particularly active threads for the*VWVortex.com - carbon build up, the*Lexus 4GR-FSE Engine Carbon Build-up (merged threads) - Club Lexus Forums, and a variety of Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread
Tony Chick, principal engineer at European Performance Labs in Stratford, Connecticut, has made a career of repairing and rebuilding high-performance engines from Audi, Porsche AG and BMW, among others and his operation has garnered a reputation among car enthusiasts as a go-to place for cleaning DI engines that have become choked with carbon. Chick thinks the problem for most affected engines can be traced to the breathing system – specifically, the design of its crankcase ventilation and exhaust-gas recirculation components.
All modern gasoline engines return some crankcase and exhaust gases back through the intake manifold in order to help control emissions, but, according to Chick, some exhaust-gas recirculation designs are “dirtier" than others. Some, he said, are less-effective at preventing the passage of tiny bits of oil, carbon and other particulates that eventually get baked onto the intake ports and valves.
Info on this kit:
FMCT2 - Oil Separator/Catch Can Service Kit - ES#2550145
This kit incorporates everything necessary to completely bypass the stock PCV system while actually providing increased operative function. This kit is recirculating in design so as to maintain emissions compliance, however, it will capture all of the aerated oil, fuel, and water vapor contained in the blow-by gasses that would otherwise enter the intake tract and potentially contribute to deposits on the intake valves, thereby keeping the intake system clean and the engine performing optimally long-term.*
Last edited by Spoonie G; 10-21-2014 at 03:35 PM.
01-02-2015, 07:22 AM
#3
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Great post. I've read a lot about this issue. This is one of the reasons I got the Audi Care package. If I have an issue with the car while under warranty I can just take it back to the dealer without issues. I plan on using Top Tier gas and using Castrol motor oil as specified in our manual. I will also be changing the oil myself in between the dealer recommended intervals. Just preventive maintenance.
After all of the reading I've done the only solution to this problem I've found is having the dealership disassemble the engine to manually clean the carbon build up. Our S3's are too new to even be thinking about this problem (I hope) but if the issue ever comes up out of warranty I rather do it MYSELF than shell out $1400 + to have the dealer do it.
After all of the reading I've done the only solution to this problem I've found is having the dealership disassemble the engine to manually clean the carbon build up. Our S3's are too new to even be thinking about this problem (I hope) but if the issue ever comes up out of warranty I rather do it MYSELF than shell out $1400 + to have the dealer do it.
01-02-2015, 12:02 PM
#4
AudiWorld Super User
My old A3, DI 2.0 Audi motor from 2007 is still on the road, a friend bought the car, there was a required service from Audi on it regarding this back in 2010.
The car has had zero issues regarding engine parts, 147,000 miles on it.
The car has had zero issues regarding engine parts, 147,000 miles on it.
01-05-2015, 01:06 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Required service sounds like head job the clean off the valves.
01-05-2015, 07:04 PM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
I just read the 2015 S3 review by Paul Rivera in the Winter 2015 issue of Quattro Quarterly published by the Audi Club of North America. Paul states: "Why two injection systems you ask? The advantages of this dual system are many. First there is less smoke. Ever notice the tailpipes of B7 and B8 cares are rather sooty? ... Now that there is a parallel system in the new system engine, Sequential Port Injection, the combustion chambers and the intake system can be cleaned by the gasoline. ... The cross-over between the injection systems is seamless and I could not detect any issue or change in character when winding the engine from idle to redline. ... "
I think Paul's opinion is worthy of respect and I hope he is right. I don't know where this stuff started that the European engine was different than the US engine in regard to dual injection.
I feel comfortable that Audi has done what they can to avoid the DI plaque of carbon buildup.
I think Paul's opinion is worthy of respect and I hope he is right. I don't know where this stuff started that the European engine was different than the US engine in regard to dual injection.
I feel comfortable that Audi has done what they can to avoid the DI plaque of carbon buildup.
Last edited by DennisMitchell; 01-05-2015 at 07:22 PM.
01-05-2015, 07:15 PM
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01-05-2015, 08:23 PM
#8
I just read the 2015 S3 review by Paul Rivera in the Winter 2015 issue of Quattro Quarterly published by the Audi Club of North America. Paul states: "Why two injection systems you ask? The advantages of this dual system are many. First there is less smoke. Ever notice the tailpipes of B7 and B8 cares are rather sooty? ... Now that there is a parallel system in the new system engine, Sequential Port Injection, the combustion chambers and the intake system can be cleaned by the gasoline. ... The cross-over between the injection systems is seamless and I could not detect any issue or change in character when winding the engine from idle to redline. ... "
I think Paul's opinion is worthy of respect and I hope he is right. I don't know where this stuff started that the European engine was different than the US engine in regard to dual injection.
I feel comfortable that Audi has done what they can to avoid the DI plaque of carbon buildup.
I think Paul's opinion is worthy of respect and I hope he is right. I don't know where this stuff started that the European engine was different than the US engine in regard to dual injection.
I feel comfortable that Audi has done what they can to avoid the DI plaque of carbon buildup.
That said, apparently Audi completely revamped the Gen III EA888's PCV system. So hopefully that rectifies the problem, for the most part.
01-07-2015, 11:44 AM
#9
AudiWorld Super User
The US S3 does not have dual injection. I've pulled the engine cover off and verified. The intake manifold has spots for the injectors (molded plastic, no holes drilled) but no injectors, fuel rail, or wiring.
That said, apparently Audi completely revamped the Gen III EA888's PCV system. So hopefully that rectifies the problem, for the most part.
That said, apparently Audi completely revamped the Gen III EA888's PCV system. So hopefully that rectifies the problem, for the most part.
Paul says he will make a retraction in the next issue. I asked him to pin down Audi as to why the Dual Injection was not included in the US Spec model and what has Audi done to minimize the carbon build-up in this new generation TSI engine.
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