Extremely long, perhaps offensive...might wanna bookmark this.
06-26-2001, 05:15 PM
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Extremely long, perhaps offensive...might wanna bookmark this.
I think it's quite safe to say things have gotten way out of hand on this forum; hidden agendas (really not-so-hidden, IMHO) have soured nearly all decent discussions with respect to turbo upgrades. Rather than continue to beat a dead horse whenever the issue comes up, I wanted to write a post that (hopefully) covers all issues that I or anyone can refer to when the B.S. starts flying. Here goes...
First of all, I have no vested interest other than my own car. I work for a large company based in my hometown. I don't work for an auto tuner. I don't get free stuff from tuners. I pay for performance items like 99% of the folks here. If that weren't the case I wouldn't still be riding around on stock brakes and a springs-only suspension upgrade. I am close with APR, mostly due to location. I met Tom from APR about a week after I picked up my A4. He's from my hometown, and he happened to be visiting some mutual friends at my Acura dealer when we crossed paths. Tom explained who APR was and if I ever wanted to talk performance parts to give him a call. This was in May of 2000, shortly before the release of EMCS. Tom was pretty excited about the product, and after hearing the details I was sold. But I digress...
This stage 3 vs. the world crap has got to come to an end. Mr. Hood....you wanted dynos; Carace has posted a 325HP dyno on a stage 3 with FMIC and cams. I think it's safe to say he was easily getting 280HP before the cams and IC went on. I've never met Carace; not in person, not online, not ever. I don't know where he lives, what his name is, nothing. I'm only going off information I recall from posts on AW.
My car, DBW of course, was dyno'd a few weeks ago. I'll spare the explicit details here but we all know the result...220HP at the wheels. Two hours later, and 20+ degrees ambient temperature cooler, we dyno'd a bone-stock 2000 A4 at 118HP. Any competent human being can compute the ratios. I believe stock S4s run around 195HP at the wheels BTW. Since you refuse to believe quattros have more than 15% driveline loss, as you posted moments after I shared my dyno graphs, I'll leave that one for others to hash out. I refuse to argue this point with you over and over again. Jim Wilson, an Upsolute reseller, only backed up my information, and he did it with FACTS. You choose to thrive solely on speculation, saying things like "quattros have only 15% driveline loss..." etc. The trouble is new people here might actually believe you (is that your intent?). You can believe whatever you want; people here with sound reasoning will draw their own conclusions. There's no smoke and mirrors here, Mr. Hood. What is the basis of your malicious posts? Is it jealousy because someone else went to market first with a big turbo upgrade for your application? For the sake of everyone here I hope you DO one day get 280HP, maybe then you'll stop hanging us on all of this. I don't care whose turbo kit you put in your car or how much, if anything, you pay for it. I won't even get into all the circumstantial B.S. you love to post here. So APR hasn't finished DBW software yet; it would have been finished using my car if my CV boot had not failed. THINGS HAPPEN. PLEASE, LIVE WITH IT. Either way, with all details considered, I think my dyno validates most of what you and your cohorts have complained about for ages. You don't believe it; I don't CARE. The data is there, it's posted, I have record of it. I also noted on several occasions that my dyno is not APR's claim, it is mine alone. I also can only reiterate that my dyno plots will get even better.
If we really wanted to, we could put you under the same scrutiny. Let's look at a few bits of information, shall we? You preach 230+HP and 275lb/ft torque. On a web calculator? Come on, Mike. You want dynos from us, but expect us to believe your computations. You were grilled for HOURS last night (6/26/01) on where you came up with the formula for getting those numbers, and someone ELSE (BlueA4EnYcEe) had to post it. If you use this formula to make your claims, you'd better have that handy to back it up, just like you want from us. It's only fair. What took so long? Do you take that formula for granted? You sure don't give us any slack in the leash. I'd also like to point out that a web calculator does not take into account other contributing variables such as clutch, driver ability, ambient conditions, etc. etc. etc. Anyone with a pulse knows that. I'll believe a dyno chart over that anytime. If your car is putting up those numbers in reality, good for you; I applaud your efforts. But I'm going to level with you, it's really a joke to put those numbers in your sig based on your butt-dyno and an equation you found on a web page. I know for fact that I'm far from alone there.
Mr. Hood....you also wanted 1/4 mile timeslips. DK, DMAK (yes, 3+, I KNOW), and others have posted sub-14 second times. At first, all you and Clark were concerned with was "will Stage 3 get into the 13s??" Yes...we know that, it's been done over and over. Now you move the goalposts again and say "yeah, but it should get low 13s, not high 13s...." in an AIM chat with me the other night. You do not own, nor have you ever driven, a 280HP Audi A4 quattro; therefore you do not know what it "should" run. That is a highly relative item anyway; 1/4-mile times have more to do with driver ability than anything. I don't drag race cars; a seasoned drag racer will do much better in my car than I will on a 1/4 mile strip. You can forget preaching to me about drag racing, because I've said over and over again I simply don't CARE. I do however trust modern technology, hence a properly-run dyno session is Holy Grail enough for me.
Mr. Huglr.....actually the personality behind KenHuglr I should say....where do I begin? You show your name only when issues like this come up. Lately you've answered a post or two on unrelated topics but I'm not convinced. Your sole intention on this forum is to attack APR. Why? It's not hard to figure out. Don't be an IP address. As someone pointed out last night, you do more of a disservice than anything to APR's competitors. I've not once seen any discussion on what you drive. It's only about the cars that have APR products in them. If I recall correctly you haven't even driven a stage 3 car, so it's equally interesting you can espouse so much "knowledge" about our cars. Do you even own an A4? You don't see me hiding behind web-based email addresses and aliases. You want validity, we give it to you in dyno charts; now it's your turn. Back up your posts or dismiss yourself from the party. I don't have a thing against anyone that chooses to mod their car in earnest. This hobby is about choice. I choose one thing, others choose differently; so be it. I don't come to AW to make enemies or build allegiance to anyone or anything. It is truly sad when plausible discussions degrade into what they have in the past year, dating back to Clark's tenure as resident leader of the anti-APR militia. Even Clark wasn't as vigilant as you have become. And who is always on the offensive? The person behind your AW name and Mike. NO one would put SO much effort into bashing another company's products unless they had a vested interest in a competing product, current or forthcoming. At least run a legitimate marketing campaign; this is worse than politics. Your premise is simple: instill doubt in the minds of those that read these posts. And what threads are those posts on? Anything and everything with Stage 3 on it. Please, get a life. This is not an attempt slander anyone. If there's anything I'd like to see it's a little solidarity here. If you or anyone questions the methodology behind where a particular performance number came from, please, JUST ASK QUESTIONS. Don't call us liars and such and claim that we're out to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. It doesn't help matters at all.
It's human nature to question new ideas and seek a better way to achieve a common goal. But at least shore up your credibility here by listening instead of calling my credibility into question at every turn. You might learn something. You can disagree with me all you want on anyTHING...all I ask is that you be reasonable about it. I'm willing to withstand the negative responses if it will help clear the air here. Things were much better around here when this wasn't the topic de jour.
I don't come to AW to push an agenda; I've made great friends in the last year and have learned a great deal about a fascinating line of automobiles. I look forward to meeting even more of the folks here in October at Petit LeMans. But the B.S. has got to stop.
Sorry for the rant, but this was long overdue in my book. If you agree (and that goes to whoever reads this), I'm glad. If you don't, in part or in whole, that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. We can't all drive silver A4s.
Thanks.
Chris
First of all, I have no vested interest other than my own car. I work for a large company based in my hometown. I don't work for an auto tuner. I don't get free stuff from tuners. I pay for performance items like 99% of the folks here. If that weren't the case I wouldn't still be riding around on stock brakes and a springs-only suspension upgrade. I am close with APR, mostly due to location. I met Tom from APR about a week after I picked up my A4. He's from my hometown, and he happened to be visiting some mutual friends at my Acura dealer when we crossed paths. Tom explained who APR was and if I ever wanted to talk performance parts to give him a call. This was in May of 2000, shortly before the release of EMCS. Tom was pretty excited about the product, and after hearing the details I was sold. But I digress...
This stage 3 vs. the world crap has got to come to an end. Mr. Hood....you wanted dynos; Carace has posted a 325HP dyno on a stage 3 with FMIC and cams. I think it's safe to say he was easily getting 280HP before the cams and IC went on. I've never met Carace; not in person, not online, not ever. I don't know where he lives, what his name is, nothing. I'm only going off information I recall from posts on AW.
My car, DBW of course, was dyno'd a few weeks ago. I'll spare the explicit details here but we all know the result...220HP at the wheels. Two hours later, and 20+ degrees ambient temperature cooler, we dyno'd a bone-stock 2000 A4 at 118HP. Any competent human being can compute the ratios. I believe stock S4s run around 195HP at the wheels BTW. Since you refuse to believe quattros have more than 15% driveline loss, as you posted moments after I shared my dyno graphs, I'll leave that one for others to hash out. I refuse to argue this point with you over and over again. Jim Wilson, an Upsolute reseller, only backed up my information, and he did it with FACTS. You choose to thrive solely on speculation, saying things like "quattros have only 15% driveline loss..." etc. The trouble is new people here might actually believe you (is that your intent?). You can believe whatever you want; people here with sound reasoning will draw their own conclusions. There's no smoke and mirrors here, Mr. Hood. What is the basis of your malicious posts? Is it jealousy because someone else went to market first with a big turbo upgrade for your application? For the sake of everyone here I hope you DO one day get 280HP, maybe then you'll stop hanging us on all of this. I don't care whose turbo kit you put in your car or how much, if anything, you pay for it. I won't even get into all the circumstantial B.S. you love to post here. So APR hasn't finished DBW software yet; it would have been finished using my car if my CV boot had not failed. THINGS HAPPEN. PLEASE, LIVE WITH IT. Either way, with all details considered, I think my dyno validates most of what you and your cohorts have complained about for ages. You don't believe it; I don't CARE. The data is there, it's posted, I have record of it. I also noted on several occasions that my dyno is not APR's claim, it is mine alone. I also can only reiterate that my dyno plots will get even better.
If we really wanted to, we could put you under the same scrutiny. Let's look at a few bits of information, shall we? You preach 230+HP and 275lb/ft torque. On a web calculator? Come on, Mike. You want dynos from us, but expect us to believe your computations. You were grilled for HOURS last night (6/26/01) on where you came up with the formula for getting those numbers, and someone ELSE (BlueA4EnYcEe) had to post it. If you use this formula to make your claims, you'd better have that handy to back it up, just like you want from us. It's only fair. What took so long? Do you take that formula for granted? You sure don't give us any slack in the leash. I'd also like to point out that a web calculator does not take into account other contributing variables such as clutch, driver ability, ambient conditions, etc. etc. etc. Anyone with a pulse knows that. I'll believe a dyno chart over that anytime. If your car is putting up those numbers in reality, good for you; I applaud your efforts. But I'm going to level with you, it's really a joke to put those numbers in your sig based on your butt-dyno and an equation you found on a web page. I know for fact that I'm far from alone there.
Mr. Hood....you also wanted 1/4 mile timeslips. DK, DMAK (yes, 3+, I KNOW), and others have posted sub-14 second times. At first, all you and Clark were concerned with was "will Stage 3 get into the 13s??" Yes...we know that, it's been done over and over. Now you move the goalposts again and say "yeah, but it should get low 13s, not high 13s...." in an AIM chat with me the other night. You do not own, nor have you ever driven, a 280HP Audi A4 quattro; therefore you do not know what it "should" run. That is a highly relative item anyway; 1/4-mile times have more to do with driver ability than anything. I don't drag race cars; a seasoned drag racer will do much better in my car than I will on a 1/4 mile strip. You can forget preaching to me about drag racing, because I've said over and over again I simply don't CARE. I do however trust modern technology, hence a properly-run dyno session is Holy Grail enough for me.
Mr. Huglr.....actually the personality behind KenHuglr I should say....where do I begin? You show your name only when issues like this come up. Lately you've answered a post or two on unrelated topics but I'm not convinced. Your sole intention on this forum is to attack APR. Why? It's not hard to figure out. Don't be an IP address. As someone pointed out last night, you do more of a disservice than anything to APR's competitors. I've not once seen any discussion on what you drive. It's only about the cars that have APR products in them. If I recall correctly you haven't even driven a stage 3 car, so it's equally interesting you can espouse so much "knowledge" about our cars. Do you even own an A4? You don't see me hiding behind web-based email addresses and aliases. You want validity, we give it to you in dyno charts; now it's your turn. Back up your posts or dismiss yourself from the party. I don't have a thing against anyone that chooses to mod their car in earnest. This hobby is about choice. I choose one thing, others choose differently; so be it. I don't come to AW to make enemies or build allegiance to anyone or anything. It is truly sad when plausible discussions degrade into what they have in the past year, dating back to Clark's tenure as resident leader of the anti-APR militia. Even Clark wasn't as vigilant as you have become. And who is always on the offensive? The person behind your AW name and Mike. NO one would put SO much effort into bashing another company's products unless they had a vested interest in a competing product, current or forthcoming. At least run a legitimate marketing campaign; this is worse than politics. Your premise is simple: instill doubt in the minds of those that read these posts. And what threads are those posts on? Anything and everything with Stage 3 on it. Please, get a life. This is not an attempt slander anyone. If there's anything I'd like to see it's a little solidarity here. If you or anyone questions the methodology behind where a particular performance number came from, please, JUST ASK QUESTIONS. Don't call us liars and such and claim that we're out to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. It doesn't help matters at all.
It's human nature to question new ideas and seek a better way to achieve a common goal. But at least shore up your credibility here by listening instead of calling my credibility into question at every turn. You might learn something. You can disagree with me all you want on anyTHING...all I ask is that you be reasonable about it. I'm willing to withstand the negative responses if it will help clear the air here. Things were much better around here when this wasn't the topic de jour.
I don't come to AW to push an agenda; I've made great friends in the last year and have learned a great deal about a fascinating line of automobiles. I look forward to meeting even more of the folks here in October at Petit LeMans. But the B.S. has got to stop.
Sorry for the rant, but this was long overdue in my book. If you agree (and that goes to whoever reads this), I'm glad. If you don't, in part or in whole, that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. We can't all drive silver A4s.
Thanks.
Chris
Trending Topics
06-26-2001, 05:33 PM
#9
AudiWorld Expert
Agreed - I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong, I wish everyone could...
although then I wouldn't have that method of sorting out the people in this world. Life would be boring if everyone were the same. Some do a good job of maiking others look better.
