Opinions Please- thinking of having this system installed...
07-05-2003, 11:21 AM
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Opinions Please- thinking of having this system installed...
in my 97 A4 - Please tell me if I'm on drugs or overpaying before I make a commitment!
JL Audio Stealth Sub Enclosure - Quoted at $675 installed.
JL Audio e6450 6 channel amp - to drive the two subs and the fronts. The sales guy said they could bridge as needed to accomodate the setup. $450 with install.
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Then either JL Audio XR400 CSI components in the front doors for $400 with installation - or I'm seriously considering custom kick panel enclosures with a 6.5" Speaker and disconnect the door speakers. The custom enclosures would cost about $300, I didn't get a quote on a set of good 6.5" Speakers (and actually would appreciate any recommendations).
I know these prices are higher than ebay, but I respect the knowledge these guys have and am willing to pay a premium for a well-done setup. Overall I'm looking at about $2k if I go with the custom kick panels and $1600 if I stay in the doors.
I've heard good things about JL Audio which is why I went that direction, if there are other mfgs I should look at please throw them out!
Thx for helping me spend my money
JL Audio Stealth Sub Enclosure - Quoted at $675 installed.
JL Audio e6450 6 channel amp - to drive the two subs and the fronts. The sales guy said they could bridge as needed to accomodate the setup. $450 with install.
------------------
Then either JL Audio XR400 CSI components in the front doors for $400 with installation - or I'm seriously considering custom kick panel enclosures with a 6.5" Speaker and disconnect the door speakers. The custom enclosures would cost about $300, I didn't get a quote on a set of good 6.5" Speakers (and actually would appreciate any recommendations).
I know these prices are higher than ebay, but I respect the knowledge these guys have and am willing to pay a premium for a well-done setup. Overall I'm looking at about $2k if I go with the custom kick panels and $1600 if I stay in the doors.
I've heard good things about JL Audio which is why I went that direction, if there are other mfgs I should look at please throw them out!
Thx for helping me spend my money
07-05-2003, 11:24 AM
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what about a single 10" or 12" sub instead of the 2 8" in the stealth box
you could get a small sealed enclosure and it won't take up too much space. I just feel that 2 8's aren't much of an improvement over the 2 6.5" speakers that are already in the rear deck.
07-05-2003, 11:27 AM
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Re: what about a single 10" or 12" sub instead of the 2 8" in the stealth box
Yeah- my installer actually recommended that approach - thought he could cut the stealthbox price in half. I like the way the stealthbox tuck up under the rear shelf - leaves room for my golf clubs! But I'll consider a single larger sub.
07-05-2003, 11:33 AM
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ok let me get this straight.....
you're gonna spend $2K on some speakers and an amp for your car.
I'm not going to delve too deep into why you're wasting your money. Cars arent the ideal listening environment.
What are you trying to achieve? Do you know anything about audio or are you just looking to say "oooh me me me I have JL this that and the other thing"
I've been designing loudspeakers since age 17 and I design audio cables. I've done my own car audio since age 17, Most car audio places are overpriced and are really just there to help you waste money. You arent goign to get this money back, so maybe you should consider spending a bit less.
I take it you know nothing about actual loudspeaker drivers, am I right? Nor do you know anything about crossover networks, or circuit design. That is why you're going to end up bleeding out the ***.
I could spend $1000 and get better results than you buying JL audio stuff. However a good ear and knowledge of how audio works, is really more important than who makes the drivers you are putting in your car.
I'm not going to delve too deep into why you're wasting your money. Cars arent the ideal listening environment.
What are you trying to achieve? Do you know anything about audio or are you just looking to say "oooh me me me I have JL this that and the other thing"
I've been designing loudspeakers since age 17 and I design audio cables. I've done my own car audio since age 17, Most car audio places are overpriced and are really just there to help you waste money. You arent goign to get this money back, so maybe you should consider spending a bit less.
I take it you know nothing about actual loudspeaker drivers, am I right? Nor do you know anything about crossover networks, or circuit design. That is why you're going to end up bleeding out the ***.
I could spend $1000 and get better results than you buying JL audio stuff. However a good ear and knowledge of how audio works, is really more important than who makes the drivers you are putting in your car.
07-05-2003, 11:38 AM
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Take out your spare tire, its worthless anyways.
Replace it with a single 15" driver.
There is more cabinent volume in that spare tire well than in your "stealth box" I know that you are cueless as to what I'm talking about, but when building a loudspeaker one must consider the volumetrics of the enclosure they are using and what type of enclosure it is, sealed, ported, bandpass or whatever. If you were really slick you could use a small woofer and horn load it, but no car audio installer has any clue about what a horn is.
There is more cabinent volume in that spare tire well than in your "stealth box" I know that you are cueless as to what I'm talking about, but when building a loudspeaker one must consider the volumetrics of the enclosure they are using and what type of enclosure it is, sealed, ported, bandpass or whatever. If you were really slick you could use a small woofer and horn load it, but no car audio installer has any clue about what a horn is.
07-05-2003, 11:42 AM
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thanks for your informative post..
Some people are willing to pay big bucks for a faster quarter mile time, I'm willing to pay some money for a better sound stage in my car. Have I done much with car audio, no, hence my initial post asking for constructive suggestions. Am I an idiot when it comes to audio - no, I've spent significant time piecing together my home theater system.
Do I realize that I'll never get the money back out on resale - yes. But let's get real, if people were only concerned about the resale this forum wouldn't exist. I value the music I listen to in my car, I drive a lot, hence I'm willing to spend some money for what many would consider an incremental upgrade.
Now - If you would care to share with me how you would put together a great system for less money, I'm all ears!
Do I realize that I'll never get the money back out on resale - yes. But let's get real, if people were only concerned about the resale this forum wouldn't exist. I value the music I listen to in my car, I drive a lot, hence I'm willing to spend some money for what many would consider an incremental upgrade.
Now - If you would care to share with me how you would put together a great system for less money, I'm all ears!
07-05-2003, 11:45 AM
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Re: Take out your spare tire, its worthless anyways.
I like the idea of the spare tire - and you're right, this isn't my area of expertise and I have no desire to spend the time it would take to figure it out, so that leaves me at the mercy of an installer, however, I will run the spare tire idea by him.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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07-05-2003, 11:47 AM
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You arent the first person to think this.....
Last I rememberd A4 UKE didnt like his stealth box.
OOOH its stealthy, but it sounds like ****. There are compromises when it comes to audio. The stock system was tuned for the interior volume of the car and for the volume of the doors and the trunk too. I have no idea what JL and their stealth box were tuned for.
Also you should think about the fact that a pair of 8" woofers isnt that much surface area.
pi*r^2 is how you get the surface area you PEMDAS is the order of operations the exponent is done fefore multiplying pi (3.14) for short by the squared radius.
Thus an 8" woofer is pi*4^2 or 3.14 * 16 = 50 squre inches of surface area..
Also a 12" woofer is pi*6^2 or 3.14 * 36 = 113.4
So a 15" woofer is pi*7.5^2 or 3.14 * 56.25 = 176 square inches
So a single 15" woofer at 76 sq inches of surface area is able to move MORE air than 3 of those DINKY 8" woofers.
What you should consider is do you want loud, clean, deep or what.... what properties do you want to achieve in the sound of this subwoofer.
I personally go for clean and deep, not loud.
You should examine the Fs of the drivers you are using this is the free air resonance of the driver, or where it starts to distort at low frequencies.
Are you confused yet?
OOOH its stealthy, but it sounds like ****. There are compromises when it comes to audio. The stock system was tuned for the interior volume of the car and for the volume of the doors and the trunk too. I have no idea what JL and their stealth box were tuned for.
Also you should think about the fact that a pair of 8" woofers isnt that much surface area.
pi*r^2 is how you get the surface area you PEMDAS is the order of operations the exponent is done fefore multiplying pi (3.14) for short by the squared radius.
Thus an 8" woofer is pi*4^2 or 3.14 * 16 = 50 squre inches of surface area..
Also a 12" woofer is pi*6^2 or 3.14 * 36 = 113.4
So a 15" woofer is pi*7.5^2 or 3.14 * 56.25 = 176 square inches
So a single 15" woofer at 76 sq inches of surface area is able to move MORE air than 3 of those DINKY 8" woofers.
What you should consider is do you want loud, clean, deep or what.... what properties do you want to achieve in the sound of this subwoofer.
I personally go for clean and deep, not loud.
You should examine the Fs of the drivers you are using this is the free air resonance of the driver, or where it starts to distort at low frequencies.
Are you confused yet?
07-05-2003, 11:55 AM
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No, I think I can follow -
give me a little credit, i'm an engineer
Given your choices of loud, clean and deep, I would have to say loud is least important. I listen to the full range of music, but my neighbors hearing me coming is not something I'm looking for.
Right now I feel that when I listen in the car I'm missing something on the low end and the high end is way too bright - not sure if that's a result of the stock tweeter, or just the placement of the tweeter. Either way I'm looking for full sound that is smooth. Rear fill is not important to me as I don't really care what it sounds like anywhere else in the car
Anyway, thanks for the input, The installer had mentioned the spare tire well, I'll check on that. Oh - dumb question, but what if you get a flat???
Given your choices of loud, clean and deep, I would have to say loud is least important. I listen to the full range of music, but my neighbors hearing me coming is not something I'm looking for.
Right now I feel that when I listen in the car I'm missing something on the low end and the high end is way too bright - not sure if that's a result of the stock tweeter, or just the placement of the tweeter. Either way I'm looking for full sound that is smooth. Rear fill is not important to me as I don't really care what it sounds like anywhere else in the car
Anyway, thanks for the input, The installer had mentioned the spare tire well, I'll check on that. Oh - dumb question, but what if you get a flat???
07-05-2003, 12:03 PM
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Resale value....
yea I know about that, I lost a Gran on the system in my 944 when I sold it.
What do you listen to. I mean if you're gonna do it do it right, $2K is a lot of money.
First off a single sub is all you need. If you have roadside or towing, then drop the spare tire, its a formality and I consider it extra dead weight.
How low do you want for it to go.
You should consider these things
Fs
Xmax
db
Fs is the free air resonance
Xmax is the maxiumum excursion of the cone
db or sensitivity is how much sound is produced for a given amount of imput.
A woofer is going to need some dampening, that is why we have boxes or cabinents or whatever. A small cabinet can be made to appear larger to the driver by using acousta stuff, its an engineered type of filler that helps increase the effective volume of a cabinet.
Frequency response...
Do you know why bose sound "good" because they put spikes in their frequency response curves at tactically proven points. This is how they can make a GOOD sounding speaker. This is also what I believe Kenwood's System E's is all about, increasing the loudness of certain freq ranges to produce a desired sound. Thats great but its NOT ACCURATE. Accuracy is what an audiophile wants. If it sounds like Sh!te it should be because the recording is crap or something other than the audio setup.
Tuning is crucial, I can take a mediocure setup and tune it properly to sound far better than it has any right to. How so, there are tricks and anybody with a good ear knows what music is meant to sound like. MEGABASS is NOT realistic.
Crossovers and smooth freq response curves are important. Depending on a given driver's freq response curve you may want to give it a sharp or a gradual crossover. What makes crossovers tricky is that you have to intergrate not one but 2 drivers together so the goal is to make them seamlessly mesh into one another.
If you want to make an excellent system first off you need to know what you are going to use it for. Gimme some info here.
Oh and do you know what "car audio" drivers really are.... This is my fav... They are normal loudspeaker drivers. Thats all, Oh ok maybe they are "engineered" or "optimized" for the car... what does that really mean? They are 4 ohm impedance and they are designed to be used in a door. Thats all.
Oh the trunk Yeah Those speakers in the rear sill are basically free air drivers as there is no enclosure behind them.
Do you actually tink that a driver can be used in either a door or a trunk and be expected to sound good in both? NO! wrong. The volume of a car door must be calculated. What do you think loudspeker cabinet design is all about. One must know the volume of a cabinet and one must Also avoid certain dimensional ratios to prevent standing waves.
Car audio is NO different than home audio.
What do you listen to. I mean if you're gonna do it do it right, $2K is a lot of money.
First off a single sub is all you need. If you have roadside or towing, then drop the spare tire, its a formality and I consider it extra dead weight.
How low do you want for it to go.
You should consider these things
Fs
Xmax
db
Fs is the free air resonance
Xmax is the maxiumum excursion of the cone
db or sensitivity is how much sound is produced for a given amount of imput.
A woofer is going to need some dampening, that is why we have boxes or cabinents or whatever. A small cabinet can be made to appear larger to the driver by using acousta stuff, its an engineered type of filler that helps increase the effective volume of a cabinet.
Frequency response...
Do you know why bose sound "good" because they put spikes in their frequency response curves at tactically proven points. This is how they can make a GOOD sounding speaker. This is also what I believe Kenwood's System E's is all about, increasing the loudness of certain freq ranges to produce a desired sound. Thats great but its NOT ACCURATE. Accuracy is what an audiophile wants. If it sounds like Sh!te it should be because the recording is crap or something other than the audio setup.
Tuning is crucial, I can take a mediocure setup and tune it properly to sound far better than it has any right to. How so, there are tricks and anybody with a good ear knows what music is meant to sound like. MEGABASS is NOT realistic.
Crossovers and smooth freq response curves are important. Depending on a given driver's freq response curve you may want to give it a sharp or a gradual crossover. What makes crossovers tricky is that you have to intergrate not one but 2 drivers together so the goal is to make them seamlessly mesh into one another.
If you want to make an excellent system first off you need to know what you are going to use it for. Gimme some info here.
Oh and do you know what "car audio" drivers really are.... This is my fav... They are normal loudspeaker drivers. Thats all, Oh ok maybe they are "engineered" or "optimized" for the car... what does that really mean? They are 4 ohm impedance and they are designed to be used in a door. Thats all.
Oh the trunk Yeah Those speakers in the rear sill are basically free air drivers as there is no enclosure behind them.
Do you actually tink that a driver can be used in either a door or a trunk and be expected to sound good in both? NO! wrong. The volume of a car door must be calculated. What do you think loudspeker cabinet design is all about. One must know the volume of a cabinet and one must Also avoid certain dimensional ratios to prevent standing waves.
Car audio is NO different than home audio.