re-post: Final Suspesion Question Long (Vogtland/Eibach/H&R)
11-14-2005, 07:09 AM
#1
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re-post: Final Suspesion Question Long (Vogtland/Eibach/H&R)
Re-post for weekday crowd:
Alright Guys,
So after a few months of researching, looking through 13 pages of archives and countless other searches on suspension combinations, I now have a much better idea on what suspension options to look at but still am unsure on which one to pull the trigger on. I'm plannin on buying my suspension setup in a month so I finally want to nip this in the bud. If you don't like long technical posts, I advice you to click back now, for the rest here we go...
So currently I'm riding on non-sport suspension and have finally decided that this winter I would be getting rid of the 4x4 look especially with the Holiday Sales some companies are offering. I wanted something a tad lower than OEM Sport but nothing too rough or stiff since I don't plan to track my car at all. My parents occasionaly drive my car so nothing that is crazy uncomfortable or TOO low, so thus my search began. I initially had my suspension choices narrowed down to H&R Sport/Bilstein and Vogtland/Bilstein.
H&R Sport/Bilstein:
I thought originally this was the setup for me. I originally reserached H&R Sport and Race and found Race to be too "stiff" and IMO a little "too" low for my taste. So H&R Sport/Bils was perfect, a little bit lower than OEM Sport and quite a bit stiffer. A lot of people on AW gave it great reviews and I thought with AWE's combo it was a great deal. Unfortunately after doing some more digging, I found this old post dealing with spring rates:
https://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/2328221.phtml
This post by Pat, gave Spring Rates for H&R Sport compared to OEM Sport. Basically on OEM Sport the spring rates are "The OEM sport front springs are 299#, the rears are either 237# or 257#, sorry I don't remember which. They are linear springs."
While H&R Sports are, "The H&R sport springs claim to be progressive, but the progressiveness doesn't start until you're compressed well into the bump-stop. Up until that point, they are linear, and we measured the rate at 299# front, and 217# rear."
While front's are the same, rear's are quite a bit different. From what I understand the smaller the spring rate is, the more understeer you will have. So H&R Sports supposedly being "better" than OEM Sport is not the case, they in fact have MORE understeer, not really making them any BETTER. This instantly turning me off from the H&R Sports, (By the way if the #'s for the spring rates are incorrect please let me know, these were the only ones I could really find.) This bringing us to our next setup, aka option 2.
Vogtland/Bilstein:
I've heard a lot of great things from users who have this setup as well as MikePureMS info on them. But I've also heard from some people that the ride is sometimes "too" stiff and I am unsure about the lowness of it. Vogtland springs are in fact lower than H&R Sport, but I do not think they are on the lowness that H&R Race is at. Because of this I am still somewhat unsure. I know if I get Grooved bilsteins, and with the Vogs but the Bilsteins on the highest perch, it MAY be around the H&R Sport level, but I do not know much about the bilstein grooved shocks and how much each perch differs by height wise. If anyone can add some input here that would help. And if this wasn't complicated enough, we have one more option to add to the mix.
Eibach Pro-kit/Bilsteins:
Recently I learned that Audi's OEM Sport Springs are Eibach's and thought that Eibach Pro's would be great spring to use then. But as I researched Eibach Pro-Kit, I found mixed revies. People saying to "stay away" from them and that Eibach is "too soft." And that some owners have reported that after a few months the rear end start's to sag a bit. As well as that I THINK Eibach Pro-kit lowers wayy more than H&R Sport or Vogtland. I believe it's around H&R Race level if not lower. If anyone has any info here with Eibach's I would appreciate it. I ask about Eibach because my buddy with an A4, is possibly going to sell me his Eibach Pro-kit springs, close to new conidition, for $180.
But basically there you have it, I'm still not sure which way to go right now. Originally H&R Sports, but if they are worse than OEM sport they are off. Vogtland is a good possibility, and maybe Eibach's. As long as Eibach's aren't too low, or just crap out after time. So basically I just wanted to post this and end all this debate in my mind and finally make a decision.
So which way would you go if you were in my shoes? H&R Sport, Vogtland, and Eibach Pro-kit owners please feel free to add your two cents. Thanks in advance for all the help and info. Oh and to add I'm pretty set on shock/spring combo's because I'm somewhat on a budget. So please don't try to talk me into coilovers or something that is way more expensive....Now back to searching the archives! =)
--Asif
Alright Guys,
So after a few months of researching, looking through 13 pages of archives and countless other searches on suspension combinations, I now have a much better idea on what suspension options to look at but still am unsure on which one to pull the trigger on. I'm plannin on buying my suspension setup in a month so I finally want to nip this in the bud. If you don't like long technical posts, I advice you to click back now, for the rest here we go...
So currently I'm riding on non-sport suspension and have finally decided that this winter I would be getting rid of the 4x4 look especially with the Holiday Sales some companies are offering. I wanted something a tad lower than OEM Sport but nothing too rough or stiff since I don't plan to track my car at all. My parents occasionaly drive my car so nothing that is crazy uncomfortable or TOO low, so thus my search began. I initially had my suspension choices narrowed down to H&R Sport/Bilstein and Vogtland/Bilstein.
H&R Sport/Bilstein:
I thought originally this was the setup for me. I originally reserached H&R Sport and Race and found Race to be too "stiff" and IMO a little "too" low for my taste. So H&R Sport/Bils was perfect, a little bit lower than OEM Sport and quite a bit stiffer. A lot of people on AW gave it great reviews and I thought with AWE's combo it was a great deal. Unfortunately after doing some more digging, I found this old post dealing with spring rates:
https://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/2328221.phtml
This post by Pat, gave Spring Rates for H&R Sport compared to OEM Sport. Basically on OEM Sport the spring rates are "The OEM sport front springs are 299#, the rears are either 237# or 257#, sorry I don't remember which. They are linear springs."
While H&R Sports are, "The H&R sport springs claim to be progressive, but the progressiveness doesn't start until you're compressed well into the bump-stop. Up until that point, they are linear, and we measured the rate at 299# front, and 217# rear."
While front's are the same, rear's are quite a bit different. From what I understand the smaller the spring rate is, the more understeer you will have. So H&R Sports supposedly being "better" than OEM Sport is not the case, they in fact have MORE understeer, not really making them any BETTER. This instantly turning me off from the H&R Sports, (By the way if the #'s for the spring rates are incorrect please let me know, these were the only ones I could really find.) This bringing us to our next setup, aka option 2.
Vogtland/Bilstein:
I've heard a lot of great things from users who have this setup as well as MikePureMS info on them. But I've also heard from some people that the ride is sometimes "too" stiff and I am unsure about the lowness of it. Vogtland springs are in fact lower than H&R Sport, but I do not think they are on the lowness that H&R Race is at. Because of this I am still somewhat unsure. I know if I get Grooved bilsteins, and with the Vogs but the Bilsteins on the highest perch, it MAY be around the H&R Sport level, but I do not know much about the bilstein grooved shocks and how much each perch differs by height wise. If anyone can add some input here that would help. And if this wasn't complicated enough, we have one more option to add to the mix.
Eibach Pro-kit/Bilsteins:
Recently I learned that Audi's OEM Sport Springs are Eibach's and thought that Eibach Pro's would be great spring to use then. But as I researched Eibach Pro-Kit, I found mixed revies. People saying to "stay away" from them and that Eibach is "too soft." And that some owners have reported that after a few months the rear end start's to sag a bit. As well as that I THINK Eibach Pro-kit lowers wayy more than H&R Sport or Vogtland. I believe it's around H&R Race level if not lower. If anyone has any info here with Eibach's I would appreciate it. I ask about Eibach because my buddy with an A4, is possibly going to sell me his Eibach Pro-kit springs, close to new conidition, for $180.
But basically there you have it, I'm still not sure which way to go right now. Originally H&R Sports, but if they are worse than OEM sport they are off. Vogtland is a good possibility, and maybe Eibach's. As long as Eibach's aren't too low, or just crap out after time. So basically I just wanted to post this and end all this debate in my mind and finally make a decision.
So which way would you go if you were in my shoes? H&R Sport, Vogtland, and Eibach Pro-kit owners please feel free to add your two cents. Thanks in advance for all the help and info. Oh and to add I'm pretty set on shock/spring combo's because I'm somewhat on a budget. So please don't try to talk me into coilovers or something that is way more expensive....Now back to searching the archives! =)
--Asif
11-14-2005, 07:26 AM
#2
Wow... i'm impressed you actually did search the forum :)
I know you don't want to throw alot of money down. However i'd like to give you 2 other options.
1) Mike @Purems is offering Koni coilovers for around 850$ IIRC. Which is a great deal. Type in KONISALE in the site and it should come up.
2)Tein suspension (coilovers) are what i'm running on my car. By no means is the car too stiff, and it handles amazingly well. They also are in the 850$ range.
However from what you've suggested i'd personally go with the H&R Sport/Bilstein combo. For some very simple reasons. Alot of people are running it and very few longevity issues. I've read bad reviews about all of the things you've mentioned (and the ones i've mentioned) nevertheless IIRC the least complaints have been about the H&R Bilstein combo. Good luck in whatever you do
1) Mike @Purems is offering Koni coilovers for around 850$ IIRC. Which is a great deal. Type in KONISALE in the site and it should come up.
2)Tein suspension (coilovers) are what i'm running on my car. By no means is the car too stiff, and it handles amazingly well. They also are in the 850$ range.
However from what you've suggested i'd personally go with the H&R Sport/Bilstein combo. For some very simple reasons. Alot of people are running it and very few longevity issues. I've read bad reviews about all of the things you've mentioned (and the ones i've mentioned) nevertheless IIRC the least complaints have been about the H&R Bilstein combo. Good luck in whatever you do
11-14-2005, 07:57 AM
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Suspension is a very subjective thing here.
In your situation, id go with Vogtland/Koni or Vogtland/bilstein if you want a more sportier and stiffer ride. I have heard a few problems from people that have had problems with Eibach springs and i know one guy a couple of weeks ago posted and his car was slammed and it was not supposed to be. But im pretty sure you will be very happy with Vogtland. good luck.
11-14-2005, 08:07 AM
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Well i ran the H&R/Bilstein set up for about 5k
it is a good combo, handling is improved that is for sure, but during hard turn in corners, there is a lot of understeer. The reason i switched from H&R sport to neuspeed race was because i didnt like the ride height of the sport springs, so i went to neuspeed race and i like the ride height as well as the performance it gives out. But if your looking into the spring rates and understeer issues, i would realy go with teh vogtland springs, ive only heard good things with votlands, i heard the handling is greatly improved, and the ride height is perfect for most daily drivers. But i have not heard about the long run for vogtland.
So i believe you are going to get better performance out of vogtland than you would in H&R, and it will lower it a little bit more than the H&R would. I recomend the vogtland set up, but really it is your choice.
So i believe you are going to get better performance out of vogtland than you would in H&R, and it will lower it a little bit more than the H&R would. I recomend the vogtland set up, but really it is your choice.
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11-14-2005, 10:43 AM
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I am in a similar situation to yours
I have been doing a lot of research for the suspension upgrade that I plan on doing in the spring. I think I am going to go with the Vogtland Club Spec Springs and either koni or bilstein shocks. I don't like H&R springs for several reasons. The rates they use are not good for handling and they give our cars a raked look. Many people compensate for this with the adjustable perch bilsteins, but I don't want to be messing with shock settings just to get the ride height I want. It is true that Vogtlands are the stiffest among sport spings, but they shouldn't be too harsh. I autocross and do the occasional track day, but still, most of my driving is on the street. I am going with the club spec spings because they have a higher rear spring rate that will reduce understeer even more. The ride height on the Vogtlands also looks good to me. I can't have it too low cause I snowboard a lot and I don't want my car to be a snowplow. Plus when you lower it too much you are screwing up all sorts of geometry in the suspension. Hope this helps.