B9 S Tronic vs. MK7 DSG
11-14-2016, 10:40 AM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
Thanks for linking to my website!
I produced these animations and illustrations of the DL382 & after reading some of the posts here felt the need to make a couple of things clear.
1. There are 2 basic families of DSG/stronic within the Volkswagen Group. Gearboxes for transverse mounted engines (in A1, A3, Q2, Q3, Polo, Golf, Passat, Tiguan, Octavia, Superb, Kodiaq etc.) and gearboxes for longitudinally mounted engines (in A4, A5, Q5, A6, A7, A8 (hybrid)). Transverse are mainly developed by VW and longitudinal are mainly developed by Audi.
2. The 2017 Audi A4/A5 etc (B9), when fitted with "stronic", all get the DL382, either DL382-7F (FWD) or DL382-7Q (AWD). Whether the car is fitted with the new quattro ultra system depends on how new it is. There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff.
3. The DL501 was the equivalent gearbox for the A4 (B8). It also had various versions and appeared in multiple vehicles, not just the S4.
Cheers!
I produced these animations and illustrations of the DL382 & after reading some of the posts here felt the need to make a couple of things clear.
1. There are 2 basic families of DSG/stronic within the Volkswagen Group. Gearboxes for transverse mounted engines (in A1, A3, Q2, Q3, Polo, Golf, Passat, Tiguan, Octavia, Superb, Kodiaq etc.) and gearboxes for longitudinally mounted engines (in A4, A5, Q5, A6, A7, A8 (hybrid)). Transverse are mainly developed by VW and longitudinal are mainly developed by Audi.
2. The 2017 Audi A4/A5 etc (B9), when fitted with "stronic", all get the DL382, either DL382-7F (FWD) or DL382-7Q (AWD). Whether the car is fitted with the new quattro ultra system depends on how new it is. There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff.
3. The DL501 was the equivalent gearbox for the A4 (B8). It also had various versions and appeared in multiple vehicles, not just the S4.
Cheers!
If true that Audi had cobbled together the FWD biased DL382 to the RWD biased self-locking centre differential, that seems a compromised and expedient engineering solution, no matter how "interim".
When someone based in Ingolstadt uses the term "2017 Audi A4/A5", that signifies production date. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that for production starting next year all B9 models with an S tronic will be using a DL382/quattro Ultra drive train, so they will have got rid of the Frankenstein "There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff."?
The reason for all this is 0.3 litres per 100km fuel saving
In the meantime, for the OP, sorry for getting you momentarily excited about have a 550Nm+ transmission and drive train combo. It seems that APR may have somehow missed the transmission change. Their 252hp 2.0TFSI remap boasts a moderate power increase and a huge torque increase, which is absolutely the wrong direction for the DL382.
Best to enjoy for what it is, as the temptation of cheap performance gains could end in tears of bankruptcy, as ~$8000 seems to be the going rate for an S tronic transmission. Maybe the DL382 is cheaper?
11-14-2016, 08:03 PM
#22
Reading that again, I came across an awful lot stronger than I intended to. I honestly understand if you decide that you want to mod your car. Several other people here do that now. It's your car and you should do what is reasonably fun to you with it. My point was (and what frustrates me) that if you are going to beef up hp and torque, you need to plan to need to beef up other parts of the power train. Like the tranny. It is just a given. Don't go into it thinking that Audi was nice enough to give you a tranny that will handle a tuned engine without any strengthening. Audi is cool, but not that cool. And please understand before you do it that your warranty will be gone and you need to know that and have plans to be your own warranty garage. But if you still decide to mod your engine then have at it and we would love to hear about it and hear how it goes.
I tried launch control for the first time today.
11-14-2016, 08:05 PM
#23
Very nice animations!
If true that Audi had cobbled together the FWD biased DL382 to the RWD biased self-locking centre differential, that seems a compromised and expedient engineering solution, no matter how "interim".
When someone based in Ingolstadt uses the term "2017 Audi A4/A5", that signifies production date. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that for production starting next year all B9 models with an S tronic will be using a DL382/quattro Ultra drive train, so they will have got rid of the Frankenstein "There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff."?
The reason for all this is 0.3 litres per 100km fuel saving
In the meantime, for the OP, sorry for getting you momentarily excited about have a 550Nm+ transmission and drive train combo. It seems that APR may have somehow missed the transmission change. Their 252hp 2.0TFSI remap boasts a moderate power increase and a huge torque increase, which is absolutely the wrong direction for the DL382.
Best to enjoy for what it is, as the temptation of cheap performance gains could end in tears of bankruptcy, as ~$8000 seems to be the going rate for an S tronic transmission. Maybe the DL382 is cheaper?
If true that Audi had cobbled together the FWD biased DL382 to the RWD biased self-locking centre differential, that seems a compromised and expedient engineering solution, no matter how "interim".
When someone based in Ingolstadt uses the term "2017 Audi A4/A5", that signifies production date. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that for production starting next year all B9 models with an S tronic will be using a DL382/quattro Ultra drive train, so they will have got rid of the Frankenstein "There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff."?
The reason for all this is 0.3 litres per 100km fuel saving
In the meantime, for the OP, sorry for getting you momentarily excited about have a 550Nm+ transmission and drive train combo. It seems that APR may have somehow missed the transmission change. Their 252hp 2.0TFSI remap boasts a moderate power increase and a huge torque increase, which is absolutely the wrong direction for the DL382.
Best to enjoy for what it is, as the temptation of cheap performance gains could end in tears of bankruptcy, as ~$8000 seems to be the going rate for an S tronic transmission. Maybe the DL382 is cheaper?
I'm good for now. Thinking I'll just keep it stock and sell when its time to move up. On the plus side, I did get 33mpg on my 90mile round trip this afternoon, so it's got that going for it.
Last edited by acruxksa; 11-14-2016 at 08:21 PM.
11-14-2016, 10:51 PM
#24
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Very nice animations!
If true that Audi had cobbled together the FWD biased DL382 to the RWD biased self-locking centre differential, that seems a compromised and expedient engineering solution, no matter how "interim".
When someone based in Ingolstadt uses the term "2017 Audi A4/A5", that signifies production date. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that for production starting next year all B9 models with an S tronic will be using a DL382/quattro Ultra drive train, so they will have got rid of the Frankenstein "There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff."?
The reason for all this is 0.3 litres per 100km fuel saving
If true that Audi had cobbled together the FWD biased DL382 to the RWD biased self-locking centre differential, that seems a compromised and expedient engineering solution, no matter how "interim".
When someone based in Ingolstadt uses the term "2017 Audi A4/A5", that signifies production date. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that for production starting next year all B9 models with an S tronic will be using a DL382/quattro Ultra drive train, so they will have got rid of the Frankenstein "There was an interim DL382-7Q which utilized a standard torsen diff."?
The reason for all this is 0.3 litres per 100km fuel saving
I'm not sure exactly from when a B9 will get the quattro ultra setup. I do know for sure that all B9s with stronic get a flavour of DL382. The DL501 is finished.
The interim solution is no different to the setup in the DL501. Not cobbled together in any way and certainly not compromised. Development is sometimes driven by fuel saving needs rather than effective function. I personally would prefer the interim setup with the torsen diff because it has permanent constantly adjusting all wheel drive compared to quattro ultra which is primarily FWD. The new system is actually similar to the system on the A3, Golf 4-motion etc (multi-plate clutch similar in principle to the Haldex) with the added functionality of switching off the drive to the rear axle for fuel saving purposes.
DL382-7F
DL382-7Q
DL382 with quattro ultra
11-14-2016, 11:43 PM
#25
From my reading I understood that Quattro Ultra was supposed to appear in the a4 Allroad. Here's one article on the subject. Very easily could be wrong though but I'm guessing the A4 won't see quattro plus until next year.
Review: Audi?s new-for-2016 ?Quattro with Ultra? all-wheel-drive system by CAR Magazine
Although, further down in the article they mention the following:
So, it's conceivable that the DL-382 was designed to handle at least up to 370lb ft of torque since it's shared across both the Ultra and Torsen systems, putting APR's stage 1 torque numbers right on the mark. Total speculation on my part based on one article from a magazine I've never heard of...................................
Which cars will it appear on?
The system has been developed for Audi models with longitudinally mounted engines; A4 upwards, essentially. It’ll first appear on the new A4 Allroad, due for launch in mid-2016 with both TFSI petrol and TDI diesel engines, and will subsequently be rolled out across new Q5, A5 and Q7 models and beyond.
The system has been developed for Audi models with longitudinally mounted engines; A4 upwards, essentially. It’ll first appear on the new A4 Allroad, due for launch in mid-2016 with both TFSI petrol and TDI diesel engines, and will subsequently be rolled out across new Q5, A5 and Q7 models and beyond.
Although, further down in the article they mention the following:
Depending on model, it will be available with both DSG auto and manual gearboxes, and with certain engines only. The system is currently designed to work with engines producing maximum torque below 370lb ft or so, meaning that RS variants and certain other engines will stick with developments of the current Torsen system.
Last edited by acruxksa; 11-14-2016 at 11:51 PM.
11-15-2016, 01:45 AM
#27
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11-15-2016, 04:57 PM
#28
AudiWorld Super User
Thanks!
I'm not sure exactly from when a B9 will get the quattro ultra setup. I do know for sure that all B9s with stronic get a flavour of DL382. The DL501 is finished.
The interim solution is no different to the setup in the DL501. Not cobbled together in any way and certainly not compromised. Development is sometimes driven by fuel saving needs rather than effective function. I personally would prefer the interim setup with the torsen diff because it has permanent constantly adjusting all wheel drive compared to quattro ultra which is primarily FWD. The new system is actually similar to the system on the A3, Golf 4-motion etc (multi-plate clutch similar in principle to the Haldex) with the added functionality of switching off the drive to the rear axle for fuel saving purposes.
Attachment 61187
DL382-7F
Attachment 61188
DL382-7Q
Attachment 61189
DL382 with quattro ultra
I'm not sure exactly from when a B9 will get the quattro ultra setup. I do know for sure that all B9s with stronic get a flavour of DL382. The DL501 is finished.
The interim solution is no different to the setup in the DL501. Not cobbled together in any way and certainly not compromised. Development is sometimes driven by fuel saving needs rather than effective function. I personally would prefer the interim setup with the torsen diff because it has permanent constantly adjusting all wheel drive compared to quattro ultra which is primarily FWD. The new system is actually similar to the system on the A3, Golf 4-motion etc (multi-plate clutch similar in principle to the Haldex) with the added functionality of switching off the drive to the rear axle for fuel saving purposes.
Attachment 61187
DL382-7F
Attachment 61188
DL382-7Q
Attachment 61189
DL382 with quattro ultra
Audi DL501 S tronic
The DL382 is directly geared to the front drive shafts, because it is a FWD biased transmission so primary torque application is intended for the front axle. The DL501 uses a pinion just in front of the centre differential to drive an angled side shaft up to the front drive shafts, because it is a rear wheel drive biased transmission in terms of torque delivery. The ZF made PDK transmission used in the Panamera is a similar design to the DL501. The Macan actually uses a modified DL501.
A DL501, followed by a crown geared locking centre differential, followed (ideally) by a rear mechanical torque vectoring (Sport) differential is for me the best performance drive train. A DL382 with quattro Ultra is more efficient, and probably more comfortable. Mixing them up doesn't seem quite right to me because it reduces the benefit of either approach, but these things are personal viewpoints only. But at least Audi are continuing to make a dual sequential gearbox available in some versions.
The DL501 is still being used in some C7 and D4 models, but perhaps for not much longer.
Probably no further traditional transmission development at Audi - it is the equivalent of making saddles for horse when the car is about to arrive. An electric motor doesn't need gears. Your future animations may not be so beautiful, I fear, as these S tronic transmissions are works of art
11-15-2016, 05:33 PM
#29
AudiWorld Super User
From my reading I understood that Quattro Ultra was supposed to appear in the a4 Allroad. Here's one article on the subject. Very easily could be wrong though but I'm guessing the A4 won't see quattro plus until next year.
Review: Audi?s new-for-2016 ?Quattro with Ultra? all-wheel-drive system by CAR Magazine
Although, further down in the article they mention the following:
So, it's conceivable that the DL-382 was designed to handle at least up to 370lb ft of torque since it's shared across both the Ultra and Torsen systems, putting APR's stage 1 torque numbers right on the mark. Total speculation on my part based on one article from a magazine I've never heard of...................................
Review: Audi?s new-for-2016 ?Quattro with Ultra? all-wheel-drive system by CAR Magazine
Although, further down in the article they mention the following:
So, it's conceivable that the DL-382 was designed to handle at least up to 370lb ft of torque since it's shared across both the Ultra and Torsen systems, putting APR's stage 1 torque numbers right on the mark. Total speculation on my part based on one article from a magazine I've never heard of...................................
Kulturserver Graz
Presentation by the lead Audi engineer. Perhaps it has been lifted for the 7Q version that ErictheRed has detailed. Or perhaps the UK journalist got the conversion from Newton metres wrong, as Nm is what Audi use. I have also seen 400Nm referenced in the last few weeks, as Audi have just commissioned a new plant in China to churn out the DL382 for the local market.
The Abt tune in Germany is 330hp and 325lb-ft torque. They tend to respect the limits, as they are an Audi Sport partner in DTM and Formula E, and have inside running on when to push, and when not. I don't know what basis APR would have for understanding the transmission's torque limits, but then I don't know much about them.
The software maps have a big role to play as well, the ECU cuts torque on shifts. The shift speed also has an impact on dynamic torque shock on the drive train, so the software controls shift speed as well.
11-15-2016, 05:39 PM
#30
AudiWorld Super User