D5 Decision Making Process
11-18-2018, 04:16 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
D5 Decision Making Process
As requested by @okkazo in another thread, I am starting this thread to share my decision making process and also to see what other folks' thought process was in our D5 evaluation/decision process. The aim here is to help others with this difficult decision as, let's face it, these cars are expensive and these decisions may be long term ones. We all have a duty to look at risks in our lives and how to potentially mitigate them, or we have to learn to live with them and that is what I, and others, have been focused on prior to pulling the trigger on this vehicle.
As you may have read before, my last Audi was a disaster to own. When it worked, it was fantastic, but when it didn't work, let's just say I was glad to have warranty. Back in the day though, I could also afford to not have a car for a few days and these days, I can't. So in no particular order, here were my top items that I was looking for from the D5.
[Competitive vehicles I explored: Mercedes S and the Lexus LS500]
1 Reliability -both mechanical reliability, but also structural reliability (rust is a major concern where I live)
2) Comfort - seat comfort/ride comfort/noise comfort.
3) Alleged cost cutting concern/the future of the automobile.
---------------------------------------------------
1) A car's purpose is to get from Point A-> Point B. Audi's are not reliable cars, and this D5 is a brand new model with a ton of new technology. I absolutely will not make the claim that I'm buying this D5 with the belief that Audi's are reliable and that somehow I'll win said genetic lottery by the builders of my new baby. That said, here are my hunches based, I hope, some logic, sound or not.
-Many of the new technologies in the D5 are found in the A6/A7Q8? - and then the rest of the entire Audi family. The MHEV system, for one is the exact same system across all new Audi models and has been in place now for about a year or so in Europe. There are no (as in 0) reports that I have read anywhere about this system, developed by Continental, and dubbed the P0 system. Namely, the 48V system, the BAS, and the Lithium Ion battery is all new. That said, Audi would not be farting around with this system and cutting corners, I believe, because it affects every single model lineup. Audi is financially incentivized to a) not screw it up due to Dieselgate and b) not screw it up because it affects every model.
-The EA839 engine found on the D5 has now been in series production for over a year now, not only in European D5 models, but also for the B9 S4 and the SQ5. This engine primarily concerned me because of previous intake valve buildup issues, the hot V turbo, and the 0W20 oil. There was 1 reported "serious"/confirmed issue of an alleged engine that failed but outside of that, there have been no other reports and given the lack of follow up by that poster, Audi USA probably made him sign a NDA and fixed the issue to his satisfaction. That said, blown engines are things that every carmaker faces. The main question at hand is if the issue is systemic. I do not see any systemic reports of this. From a carbon buildup perspective, the EA837 engine (3.0 TSI model found on the D4) had no systemic issues of carbon buildup issues. The air oil separator module is key to helping resolve this issue. It seems like Audi finally got it right on the EA837 engine and that module is largely carried over on the EA839. From a hot V turbo perspective, there just isn't any alternative to turbos screwing things up. The turbocharging of the LS is a new item in the LS500 as well, and the turbos on the S class are where they are traditionally found, which ruins engine mounts, as an example, and the new turbo engines on the S are also going to be up top in the engine bay. As far as 0W20 oil is concerned, used oil analysis by various folks with the B9 S4 and the SQ5 have come back overwhelmingly positive. (Found on BITOG - or Bob Is The Oil Guy - a forum for nerds like me who like dissecting engine oil performance). It shows that the oil has resisted shearing very well, that the oil has not broken down, and that the volatility of oil has been stable and thus this improves the probability that the engine's intake valves and such will NOT be covered in carbon junk! Do I intend to do the full 1 year 15,000km between oil changes? Of course not, but if I find myself 6 months in at 7500km, will I pay out of pocket (Audi Care won't cover this) to get an oil change done? Yes, we're talking $100 at the end of the day. Not a big deal. A more aggressive oil change schedule will assist with preventing carbon buildup as the oil will obviously be less volatile. Is it overkill? 99.9% sure it is, but whatever, it's $100. Sticking with 0 ethanol and a fuel with PEA (phospo ether amine) is key, so Shell Nitrogen Premium it is. Not a big deal for me as it's around the corner. (I will not explain what PEA is again, and before anyone goes "fuel injector cleaners don't work on DI engines" - I'm not commenting on this again. How this works has nothing to do with port fuel injection and has nothing to do with what 99.9% of folks believe).
Edit to add: The EA839 engine and MHEV components have not only existed in Europe and in some cars in North America, but will also be found in the Porsche family in the Macan/Cayenne/Panamera. VAG is really incentivized to not screw it up
On the subject of the hot V turbo, Audi now has mass produced the D4's 4.0 TSI engine, so hopefully they've learned a thing or two....
-One major concern that I know that will not be covered under extended warranty is the mild hybrid battery. I acknowledge this risk and will play it by ear. With a wholesaler not too far from me and at 25-40% off of MSRP, this fix is still expensive, but bearable. That said, lithium ion batteries in the D5 are now also found on all new Audi models (A6/A7/Q8?) and will be trickling to all other models. I highly doubt Audi was messing around here as while we lot can afford $3K here and there, to most folks who drive an A4, as an example, that isn't really feasible. (generalizing, and stereotyping, and not trying to be rude, just trying to make a point)
-So on this point, on a balance of probabilities, I feel that the EA839 engine has a good chance at being a successful engine. It's a mass produced engine that has had some limited field success in NA applications of the B9 S4 and the SQ5 and in Europe. Could there be potential big ticket items that cause an issue? Yes, but in all of those scenarios, both the new vehicle limited warranty covers it, and the extended limited warranty from Audi Canada also covers it. As some of you know, I have dissected the terms and conditions of the warranty, and there is no doubt that the engine and all things engine, are covered.
-On the topic of air suspension, as air struts are not covered under warranty outside of the new vehicle warranty, at least here in Canada. Yes, that is a known risk that I am taking as it would be covered by Mercedes and Lexus. Air struts are not cheap, at several thousand dollars, but Audi's air strut reliability in the D4 has proven superior to the MB application. I don't know why, or if I'm right, but I just don't see that many air strut failures on forums. But if it does happen, I have access to a wholesaler which would give me 25% off MSRP. And if that doesn't work out, Airnott is where I'd go and buy a strut and it's warranties for life. I accept this risk and will play it by ear. The predictive suspension did get me excited, but based on the delayed launch and the complete newness of that design, even though it's not available to me now, I don't think I'd buy it once it's even available. The D5's ride without that system is already faultless (in my books), so I hedged my concerns about the predictive suspension by not buying it
-4 wheel steering: An unproven application, sure, but I also accept this risk. Covered by all warranties, and we're not talking about an overly complex system here.
-Air conditioning: In N. America, Audi has stuck to the old tried and tested refrigerant, and not the CO2 fancy one used in Europe. Risk mitigated, and acknowledged. All warranties also cover this.
2) Comfort. I've already written at length about how I feel the D5's comfort is superior to the S and the LS500. I won't rehash this. That said a common theme that I have been focusing on is to what measure do I trade comfort for reliability. I know, for a fact, that the W222 is more likely to be reliable as it's now a mid cycle refresh. I know Lexus is more than likely going to be more reliable than the D5, even though that too is a brand new car. Save for one reported transmission jerkiness issue that has now been resolved by Lexus Japan, the damn car is, once again, reliable as hell. All that being said, the D5 is the only one that doesn't have run flat tires. It's also the quietest (on par with the S), and rides the best. The seats are also the very best out of all 3. So, all things considered, am I willing to trade some comfort for reliability? In the end, I decided no, that comfort reigned supreme, and that I understood and acknowledged the risk from #1 above.
3) Cost cutting -future of the automobile.
What I mean here is that we all know as the carmakers have said that VAG and MB are cost cutting, and immensely cost cutting on existing cars prior to CY2021. They are all focused on electrification of their cars. The D5 A8 is only at stage P0, which is MHEV. As the next few years roll by, cars will become more and more electrified. I don't like that. In fact, I abhor that. I am a gas and fizz bang engine sort of guy. I reluctantly looked over the fact that the D5 is already halfway there, That said, I plan to drive this car for a long time, and with where things are going, eh, I'll just buy this thing now.
With respect to MB, one can already see the extensive cost cutting on their S class. In fact, many of the parts in the M276 DELA 30 engine found on the S450 are already plastic. MB acknowledges that it is to save weight (and cost). There are several interior components on the S class that were made cheaper during the mid cycle refresh and MB customers even pointed them out. MB even got rid of things like headlight washers (seriously?). Audi publicly announced that they halved the testing costs of the new A6, and made no mention of the A8 (and the A8 was already being mass produced by the time they made that announcement). I feel like we dodged that cost cutting initiative....am I right, or wrong? I don't know.
-------------------
All this to state that going into this decision, I feel like I understood the risks and either lived with them or mitigated them. One last risk mitigation point is while my order is now at Audi, I am not taking delivery for this car for a while. I will continue being diligent and watching what people report and I have signed a deal such that I can walk from my order at any given time, up to and including @ time of delivery. If I am not satisfied in any way, I am walking away from this deal with no financial penalty. Case in point, my dealer did not take a deposit either, and the entire order is subject to my full approval. Thus, even to this day, I have hedged my risks. If things continue to go well, eventually I will accept delivery, and I want this car to succeed, because if it doesn't, I am screwed. The S class will be electrified to 48V by MY2020, and I will have missed the chance to buy the MY19 one which is still the regular ol' engine.
I also never plan to own this vehicle out of warranty. Given the contract terms of the extended warranty plan in Canada, and the lack of a real price differential between buying it at time of purchase and before the new vehicle warranty is up, and given the fact that I don't know if my driving patterns will change, and because I don't know if I will keep this car past 4 year 80k (Reliability concerns), I'll wait. If this car turns out well or half decent, I will then buy the extended warranty and drive it until the car falls apart. (at least that is what I tell myself now...)
As you may have read before, my last Audi was a disaster to own. When it worked, it was fantastic, but when it didn't work, let's just say I was glad to have warranty. Back in the day though, I could also afford to not have a car for a few days and these days, I can't. So in no particular order, here were my top items that I was looking for from the D5.
[Competitive vehicles I explored: Mercedes S and the Lexus LS500]
1 Reliability -both mechanical reliability, but also structural reliability (rust is a major concern where I live)
2) Comfort - seat comfort/ride comfort/noise comfort.
3) Alleged cost cutting concern/the future of the automobile.
---------------------------------------------------
1) A car's purpose is to get from Point A-> Point B. Audi's are not reliable cars, and this D5 is a brand new model with a ton of new technology. I absolutely will not make the claim that I'm buying this D5 with the belief that Audi's are reliable and that somehow I'll win said genetic lottery by the builders of my new baby. That said, here are my hunches based, I hope, some logic, sound or not.
-Many of the new technologies in the D5 are found in the A6/A7Q8? - and then the rest of the entire Audi family. The MHEV system, for one is the exact same system across all new Audi models and has been in place now for about a year or so in Europe. There are no (as in 0) reports that I have read anywhere about this system, developed by Continental, and dubbed the P0 system. Namely, the 48V system, the BAS, and the Lithium Ion battery is all new. That said, Audi would not be farting around with this system and cutting corners, I believe, because it affects every single model lineup. Audi is financially incentivized to a) not screw it up due to Dieselgate and b) not screw it up because it affects every model.
-The EA839 engine found on the D5 has now been in series production for over a year now, not only in European D5 models, but also for the B9 S4 and the SQ5. This engine primarily concerned me because of previous intake valve buildup issues, the hot V turbo, and the 0W20 oil. There was 1 reported "serious"/confirmed issue of an alleged engine that failed but outside of that, there have been no other reports and given the lack of follow up by that poster, Audi USA probably made him sign a NDA and fixed the issue to his satisfaction. That said, blown engines are things that every carmaker faces. The main question at hand is if the issue is systemic. I do not see any systemic reports of this. From a carbon buildup perspective, the EA837 engine (3.0 TSI model found on the D4) had no systemic issues of carbon buildup issues. The air oil separator module is key to helping resolve this issue. It seems like Audi finally got it right on the EA837 engine and that module is largely carried over on the EA839. From a hot V turbo perspective, there just isn't any alternative to turbos screwing things up. The turbocharging of the LS is a new item in the LS500 as well, and the turbos on the S class are where they are traditionally found, which ruins engine mounts, as an example, and the new turbo engines on the S are also going to be up top in the engine bay. As far as 0W20 oil is concerned, used oil analysis by various folks with the B9 S4 and the SQ5 have come back overwhelmingly positive. (Found on BITOG - or Bob Is The Oil Guy - a forum for nerds like me who like dissecting engine oil performance). It shows that the oil has resisted shearing very well, that the oil has not broken down, and that the volatility of oil has been stable and thus this improves the probability that the engine's intake valves and such will NOT be covered in carbon junk! Do I intend to do the full 1 year 15,000km between oil changes? Of course not, but if I find myself 6 months in at 7500km, will I pay out of pocket (Audi Care won't cover this) to get an oil change done? Yes, we're talking $100 at the end of the day. Not a big deal. A more aggressive oil change schedule will assist with preventing carbon buildup as the oil will obviously be less volatile. Is it overkill? 99.9% sure it is, but whatever, it's $100. Sticking with 0 ethanol and a fuel with PEA (phospo ether amine) is key, so Shell Nitrogen Premium it is. Not a big deal for me as it's around the corner. (I will not explain what PEA is again, and before anyone goes "fuel injector cleaners don't work on DI engines" - I'm not commenting on this again. How this works has nothing to do with port fuel injection and has nothing to do with what 99.9% of folks believe).
Edit to add: The EA839 engine and MHEV components have not only existed in Europe and in some cars in North America, but will also be found in the Porsche family in the Macan/Cayenne/Panamera. VAG is really incentivized to not screw it up
On the subject of the hot V turbo, Audi now has mass produced the D4's 4.0 TSI engine, so hopefully they've learned a thing or two....-One major concern that I know that will not be covered under extended warranty is the mild hybrid battery. I acknowledge this risk and will play it by ear. With a wholesaler not too far from me and at 25-40% off of MSRP, this fix is still expensive, but bearable. That said, lithium ion batteries in the D5 are now also found on all new Audi models (A6/A7/Q8?) and will be trickling to all other models. I highly doubt Audi was messing around here as while we lot can afford $3K here and there, to most folks who drive an A4, as an example, that isn't really feasible. (generalizing, and stereotyping, and not trying to be rude, just trying to make a point)
-So on this point, on a balance of probabilities, I feel that the EA839 engine has a good chance at being a successful engine. It's a mass produced engine that has had some limited field success in NA applications of the B9 S4 and the SQ5 and in Europe. Could there be potential big ticket items that cause an issue? Yes, but in all of those scenarios, both the new vehicle limited warranty covers it, and the extended limited warranty from Audi Canada also covers it. As some of you know, I have dissected the terms and conditions of the warranty, and there is no doubt that the engine and all things engine, are covered.
-On the topic of air suspension, as air struts are not covered under warranty outside of the new vehicle warranty, at least here in Canada. Yes, that is a known risk that I am taking as it would be covered by Mercedes and Lexus. Air struts are not cheap, at several thousand dollars, but Audi's air strut reliability in the D4 has proven superior to the MB application. I don't know why, or if I'm right, but I just don't see that many air strut failures on forums. But if it does happen, I have access to a wholesaler which would give me 25% off MSRP. And if that doesn't work out, Airnott is where I'd go and buy a strut and it's warranties for life. I accept this risk and will play it by ear. The predictive suspension did get me excited, but based on the delayed launch and the complete newness of that design, even though it's not available to me now, I don't think I'd buy it once it's even available. The D5's ride without that system is already faultless (in my books), so I hedged my concerns about the predictive suspension by not buying it
-4 wheel steering: An unproven application, sure, but I also accept this risk. Covered by all warranties, and we're not talking about an overly complex system here.
-Air conditioning: In N. America, Audi has stuck to the old tried and tested refrigerant, and not the CO2 fancy one used in Europe. Risk mitigated, and acknowledged. All warranties also cover this.
2) Comfort. I've already written at length about how I feel the D5's comfort is superior to the S and the LS500. I won't rehash this. That said a common theme that I have been focusing on is to what measure do I trade comfort for reliability. I know, for a fact, that the W222 is more likely to be reliable as it's now a mid cycle refresh. I know Lexus is more than likely going to be more reliable than the D5, even though that too is a brand new car. Save for one reported transmission jerkiness issue that has now been resolved by Lexus Japan, the damn car is, once again, reliable as hell. All that being said, the D5 is the only one that doesn't have run flat tires. It's also the quietest (on par with the S), and rides the best. The seats are also the very best out of all 3. So, all things considered, am I willing to trade some comfort for reliability? In the end, I decided no, that comfort reigned supreme, and that I understood and acknowledged the risk from #1 above.
3) Cost cutting -future of the automobile.
What I mean here is that we all know as the carmakers have said that VAG and MB are cost cutting, and immensely cost cutting on existing cars prior to CY2021. They are all focused on electrification of their cars. The D5 A8 is only at stage P0, which is MHEV. As the next few years roll by, cars will become more and more electrified. I don't like that. In fact, I abhor that. I am a gas and fizz bang engine sort of guy. I reluctantly looked over the fact that the D5 is already halfway there, That said, I plan to drive this car for a long time, and with where things are going, eh, I'll just buy this thing now.
With respect to MB, one can already see the extensive cost cutting on their S class. In fact, many of the parts in the M276 DELA 30 engine found on the S450 are already plastic. MB acknowledges that it is to save weight (and cost). There are several interior components on the S class that were made cheaper during the mid cycle refresh and MB customers even pointed them out. MB even got rid of things like headlight washers (seriously?). Audi publicly announced that they halved the testing costs of the new A6, and made no mention of the A8 (and the A8 was already being mass produced by the time they made that announcement). I feel like we dodged that cost cutting initiative....am I right, or wrong? I don't know.
-------------------
All this to state that going into this decision, I feel like I understood the risks and either lived with them or mitigated them. One last risk mitigation point is while my order is now at Audi, I am not taking delivery for this car for a while. I will continue being diligent and watching what people report and I have signed a deal such that I can walk from my order at any given time, up to and including @ time of delivery. If I am not satisfied in any way, I am walking away from this deal with no financial penalty. Case in point, my dealer did not take a deposit either, and the entire order is subject to my full approval. Thus, even to this day, I have hedged my risks. If things continue to go well, eventually I will accept delivery, and I want this car to succeed, because if it doesn't, I am screwed. The S class will be electrified to 48V by MY2020, and I will have missed the chance to buy the MY19 one which is still the regular ol' engine.
I also never plan to own this vehicle out of warranty. Given the contract terms of the extended warranty plan in Canada, and the lack of a real price differential between buying it at time of purchase and before the new vehicle warranty is up, and given the fact that I don't know if my driving patterns will change, and because I don't know if I will keep this car past 4 year 80k (Reliability concerns), I'll wait. If this car turns out well or half decent, I will then buy the extended warranty and drive it until the car falls apart. (at least that is what I tell myself now...)
Last edited by angrypengu; 11-18-2018 at 04:50 AM.
11-18-2018, 06:31 AM
#2
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As you know I have read most of your posts on the other forum, and many of them here. I simply do not understand why you don't lease the car and assess its value to you at the end. You get 2-3 years to enjoy the car and learn its quirks. I understand that the engine has been in use already and that D5 has been in production in Europe for a bit already, however it's still a first model year German car. And a flagship at that. Whether it's MB, BMW or Audi, the flagship sedans are far more error prone compared to the C, 3, A4 if for no other reason all the extra tech involved. Your C, seemingly has treated you well. It is a great car and fairly simplistic, even loaded, when compared to the D5. You say you will only own it under warranty, and I think that's a good idea.
I get your OCD, nothing wrong with that, especially at this price point. If you lease the car you can scrutinize it without fear of regret because you get to give it back and you haven't sunk all the money into it. On the flip side to be fair, at least in the US, Audi lease rates are not as favorable as the other makes.
I get your OCD, nothing wrong with that, especially at this price point. If you lease the car you can scrutinize it without fear of regret because you get to give it back and you haven't sunk all the money into it. On the flip side to be fair, at least in the US, Audi lease rates are not as favorable as the other makes.
11-18-2018, 06:34 AM
#3
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
As you know I have read most of your posts on the other forum, and many of them here. I simply do not understand why you don't lease the car and assess its value to you at the end. You get 2-3 years to enjoy the car and learn its quirks. I understand that the engine has been in use already and that D5 has been in production in Europe for a bit already, however it's still a first model year German car. And a flagship at that. Whether it's MB, BMW or Audi, the flagship sedans are far more error prone compared to the C, 3, A4 if for no other reason all the extra tech involved. Your C, seemingly has treated you well. It is a great car and fairly simplistic, even loaded, when compared to the D5. You say you will only own it under warranty, and I think that's a good idea.
I get your OCD, nothing wrong with that, especially at this price point. If you lease the car you can scrutinize it without fear of regret because you get to give it back and you haven't sunk all the money into it. On the flip side to be fair, at least in the US, Audi lease rates are not as favorable as the other makes.
I get your OCD, nothing wrong with that, especially at this price point. If you lease the car you can scrutinize it without fear of regret because you get to give it back and you haven't sunk all the money into it. On the flip side to be fair, at least in the US, Audi lease rates are not as favorable as the other makes.
11-18-2018, 06:40 AM
#4
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Yeah in that case I get it. There must be something about leasing and Audi that I just don't get as MB and BMW seem to love leases, and their flagships by a large factor are leases versus purchased. They inflate the residual ( a bit less so these days) making the payment more attractive, they get the sales figures they want and retain payment. Anyway, still looking forward to pics and first impression upon ownership.
11-18-2018, 04:16 PM
#5
AudiWorld Member
Angrypengu
Looking forward to your decision upon delivery of the vehicle and first three months.
I may have to agree with you about the carbon build up if that is the case in the D5's then i would do the 6 month oil change.
When i had my Acura Legend and Acura TSX i done the three month oil changes to lessen the carbon build-up.
Best of luck.
Looking forward to your decision upon delivery of the vehicle and first three months.
I may have to agree with you about the carbon build up if that is the case in the D5's then i would do the 6 month oil change.
When i had my Acura Legend and Acura TSX i done the three month oil changes to lessen the carbon build-up.
Best of luck.
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