APR Chips and Dealer VAG Invisibility
04-20-2003, 08:20 AM
#1
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
APR Chips and Dealer VAG Invisibility
This verbiage was used on the APR site with regards to their chips:
"All APR chip upgrades use encryption, which serve several purposes. First, it keeps prying eyes out of our software and prevents lesser companies from copying the chip and degrading the product. Secondly, the encryption prevents the dealer from flash programming the ECU. Also, all APR software is undetectable to a dealers VAG diagnostic tool."
Are these chips REALLY undetectable? Buying a $600 to increase horsepower by 68HP seems TOO expensive if your warrenty is voided for a $6000-$10,000 auto repair.
What are your dealer experiences?
"All APR chip upgrades use encryption, which serve several purposes. First, it keeps prying eyes out of our software and prevents lesser companies from copying the chip and degrading the product. Secondly, the encryption prevents the dealer from flash programming the ECU. Also, all APR software is undetectable to a dealers VAG diagnostic tool."
Are these chips REALLY undetectable? Buying a $600 to increase horsepower by 68HP seems TOO expensive if your warrenty is voided for a $6000-$10,000 auto repair.
What are your dealer experiences?
04-20-2003, 12:59 PM
#2
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North Shore of MA
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience
When my turbos cooked, the dealer first checked the cruise control button to see if I had an APR box, then pulled the top off the black environmental box holding the ECU to be sure that the chastity box was still in place... I have heard of them pulling the ECU and taking its cover off too, just to be sure.
Most "tuned" ecu's are undetectable to VAG. They are COMPLETELY detectable to the technician through a driving test or physical inspection.
Any dealer preparing to justify a "replace turbos" warranty claim will be very thorough in my experience.
My take is that if you play, you need to be prepared to pay. Another thing -- the increase in performance is definitely worth it. Just be sure to choose a tuner who values reliability over all else! My sig holds my recommendation!
Most "tuned" ecu's are undetectable to VAG. They are COMPLETELY detectable to the technician through a driving test or physical inspection.
Any dealer preparing to justify a "replace turbos" warranty claim will be very thorough in my experience.
My take is that if you play, you need to be prepared to pay. Another thing -- the increase in performance is definitely worth it. Just be sure to choose a tuner who values reliability over all else! My sig holds my recommendation!
04-20-2003, 01:21 PM
#3
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: My experience
Unfortunately, I am not prepared to pay...nor am I willing to void a 100,000 mile war. just because I want some extra horsepower. I guess if I want to feel horsepower, I'll just hop in my '65 Stang GT Coupe w/ 400HP (351 Windsor).
Otherwise, I will have one broken Audi in my driveway with no ability to sell it as an Audi assured car.
What about replacing the ECM with the OEM ECM (back up) when you take it in. They will be able to see its stock, but they will know that I probably tampered with it. Is there a way around this?
Otherwise, I will have one broken Audi in my driveway with no ability to sell it as an Audi assured car.
What about replacing the ECM with the OEM ECM (back up) when you take it in. They will be able to see its stock, but they will know that I probably tampered with it. Is there a way around this?
04-20-2003, 03:13 PM
#4
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North Shore of MA
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mustang is probably the best bet...
I'm not the best person to ask on this one, as I don't believe that Audi should pay if someone frys their turbos by "enhancing" the basic system.
You should be able to find the information you seek by searching this board.
Sorry...
You should be able to find the information you seek by searching this board.
Sorry...
04-20-2003, 05:22 PM
#5
Prove that the turbos are blown due to a chip?? That attitude is on the weak side.
I agree pay to play but prove to me that my aftermarket catback, BPV's caused the turbos to fail, hell prove the chip caused them to fail. They can't because that's not the cause of the turbo failures, hence the stock allroads blowing turbos.
Sorry I don't swallow this concept that Audi is all in the right and the enthusiast is **** out of luck, because Audi "supreme beings" built something with serious flaws. Thus the large but not big enough oil inlet in the upgraded turbos 10/00+. They are on what the 3rd revision of the BPV. Got rid of the Fhose which was prone to failure, and revamped the TBB/Clamp due to failures which are the larger reasons for the failed turbos, besides the manufacturing defect!
How many DSM's had their stock turbos go bad, how many Supras lose stock turbos, RX7's (with the mods?) Very minimal. Please consider the real world when you post your "feelings" on this.
Also note, Europeans when upgrading their systems make O.CT tuning the last stop, why is that?. We don't need any pimpin of O.CT on this board or any board with out solid real world tests and no, butt dynos nor Dyno graphs from Europe don't count.
This has been coming for some time!
Tory
Sorry I don't swallow this concept that Audi is all in the right and the enthusiast is **** out of luck, because Audi "supreme beings" built something with serious flaws. Thus the large but not big enough oil inlet in the upgraded turbos 10/00+. They are on what the 3rd revision of the BPV. Got rid of the Fhose which was prone to failure, and revamped the TBB/Clamp due to failures which are the larger reasons for the failed turbos, besides the manufacturing defect!
How many DSM's had their stock turbos go bad, how many Supras lose stock turbos, RX7's (with the mods?) Very minimal. Please consider the real world when you post your "feelings" on this.
Also note, Europeans when upgrading their systems make O.CT tuning the last stop, why is that?. We don't need any pimpin of O.CT on this board or any board with out solid real world tests and no, butt dynos nor Dyno graphs from Europe don't count.
This has been coming for some time!
Tory
04-20-2003, 06:53 PM
#6
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just had a similar experience about a week ago with ..
my warranty company. I am still awaiting approval for turbos (but I digress). They did a check, including pictures. Luckily I was not chipped as they did look at the ECM. And just like Haystack is saying, "if you play.....".
Trending Topics
04-20-2003, 08:40 PM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North Shore of MA
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I am trying to say is...
No, I don't think an Audi owner should be denied coverage if their cat back exhaust is not stock when their turbos go bad. Actually, this should help reliability of the stock setup by reducing backpressure and exhaust temps. DPs, upgraded hoses, DV's, bigger brakes, better clutches, new springs/shocks/bars are the same way -- all good stuff.
Chips are a different story IMHO, as it is easy to create a program that stretches things a bit to gain "the last HP or Lb-Ft" for "marketing" purposes.
This is the direction I originally took -- installing a chipped ECU in an otherwise stock A6, and got burned. I believe 100% that my turbos fried due to the chip -- they were making the dreaded siren noise within 1 week of installing the ECU at 5K miles on the car. I do not for a nanosecond believe that they would have died unless I stressed them, and I paid the price.
Don't get me wrong, I advocate tuning!
I also advocate taking personal resposibility for one's actions.
Most tuner products sold into our market are of high quality. Lots of folks have had great results with a variety of upgrades from ABT/AMS, MTM, GIAC, APR, O.CT, and from the tuning firms representing their products. Each one is optimized based on the philosophy of the tuner, and each tuner/owner believes that they have made/bought the best for their application.
For reference, my application is 99.9% street where smoothness, reliability and feel are far more important -- to me -- than 1/4 mile times or dyno results. I find comfort in low EGT's, and love a long flat torque curve. Others may want to maximize area under the torque curve, or optimize in some other way. That's cool! It's what they want, they should have it!
I did a lot of research before buying my setup, I like the philosophy and service orientation of my chosen tuner, and no, I'm not intentionally "pimping" anyone.
The question I was answering with my previous post was "if I chip my car and blow up my turbos, how do I install a stock ECU so my dealer will think my car is stock and give me a new pair of turbos under warranty".
If I misunderstood the question, shame on me, if not, I believe my answer reflected my opinion.
I agree with you 100% that Audi does need to find a way to be more tuner friendly IMHO.
What are you looking for in terms of real world results r.e. the O.CT stuff? I have G-tech results only at this point, and am waiting to calibrate against a known standard before posting. There are Tip and 6-speed 1/4 mile times posted here in the mid to very low 13's -- with slips. I don't know of anyone who has run on a US dyno, but this stuff is pretty new to the states, and I'm sure it's coming.
I welcome a discussion on this if you wish. Just send me an email at geoffr@attbi.com and I'll be happy to give you a call. Or, I get out to the Bay Area about 8 times a year, I'd be happy to meet for a cup of coffee or the like. Let me know!
Chips are a different story IMHO, as it is easy to create a program that stretches things a bit to gain "the last HP or Lb-Ft" for "marketing" purposes.
This is the direction I originally took -- installing a chipped ECU in an otherwise stock A6, and got burned. I believe 100% that my turbos fried due to the chip -- they were making the dreaded siren noise within 1 week of installing the ECU at 5K miles on the car. I do not for a nanosecond believe that they would have died unless I stressed them, and I paid the price.
Don't get me wrong, I advocate tuning!
I also advocate taking personal resposibility for one's actions.
Most tuner products sold into our market are of high quality. Lots of folks have had great results with a variety of upgrades from ABT/AMS, MTM, GIAC, APR, O.CT, and from the tuning firms representing their products. Each one is optimized based on the philosophy of the tuner, and each tuner/owner believes that they have made/bought the best for their application.
For reference, my application is 99.9% street where smoothness, reliability and feel are far more important -- to me -- than 1/4 mile times or dyno results. I find comfort in low EGT's, and love a long flat torque curve. Others may want to maximize area under the torque curve, or optimize in some other way. That's cool! It's what they want, they should have it!
I did a lot of research before buying my setup, I like the philosophy and service orientation of my chosen tuner, and no, I'm not intentionally "pimping" anyone.
The question I was answering with my previous post was "if I chip my car and blow up my turbos, how do I install a stock ECU so my dealer will think my car is stock and give me a new pair of turbos under warranty".
If I misunderstood the question, shame on me, if not, I believe my answer reflected my opinion.
I agree with you 100% that Audi does need to find a way to be more tuner friendly IMHO.
What are you looking for in terms of real world results r.e. the O.CT stuff? I have G-tech results only at this point, and am waiting to calibrate against a known standard before posting. There are Tip and 6-speed 1/4 mile times posted here in the mid to very low 13's -- with slips. I don't know of anyone who has run on a US dyno, but this stuff is pretty new to the states, and I'm sure it's coming.
I welcome a discussion on this if you wish. Just send me an email at geoffr@attbi.com and I'll be happy to give you a call. Or, I get out to the Bay Area about 8 times a year, I'd be happy to meet for a cup of coffee or the like. Let me know!
04-20-2003, 08:59 PM
#9
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had minor issues where the APR stock mode helped.........
had a hose pop off my tbb and they tested my boost level and said it was normal (it was in stock mode). If the turbos failed I would expect a deaper look into my ecu and a battle.