Mild rant about "Drivers Safety School".
05-10-2006, 04:18 AM
#1
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Mild rant about "Drivers Safety School".
First I'll qualify myself. I'm a slightly non-traditional, slightly eccentric retired (3-years) 61 yo male. I have a nice $50K luxo/performance sedan...the S4. I drive 'sensibly' on the street. Last year I was invited by a good friend to attend the ACNA event at Watkins Glen 2 and I accepted. I wanted to exploit my brain and senses (both ravaged by time) so I can bring my driving ability near the capability of the S4.
When at the track, I was TOTALLY overwhelmed by the enormity of the event. Allot of stuff for my head to process...ALLOT. The thought that I would be in harm's way NEVER entered my mind. On the very first yellow warm-up lap a 1980-something Corvette spun! No damage, no problems. During day 2 a BMW 328 got a wheel in the dirt, came back on the track, snapped around, hit the barrier going backward and flipped onto its roof. Driver(solo)was okay, although someone mentioned that he had an elevated heart rate. I went to look at the car afterward and there was junk scattered around inside...hair brushes, coins, maps, etc.. A NO-NO. What-in-the-hell was he thinking?
Now my curiousity gets the best of me and I register for Mont Tremblant. My mind has a permanent imprint of what I need to do to be safe and smooth when on the track (not to mention the Armcos at the Glen). Again, being in harm's way never entered my mind. In the morning session some excitement occurred. A young man in a red GTI overcooked turn 1 and put its nose into the barrier...slight damage, fixable, no injuries. This driver, only hours earlier, was bragging at how well he did at WG 1, should be soloing blah-blah-blah, needs more HP on the ground...blah-blah-blah. The second day, two Audis came together (solos) when one driver tried to "squeeze in" for position...position for WHAT? Moderate damage, fixable, no injuries. Any these incidences could occurr at any time, collect anyone or more and can be serious at the speeds we are running if you forget why we are here. Harm's way...it's there every second you're on the track, ESPECIALLY when others forget why we are here. PLEASE THINK ABOUT OTHERS WHEN ON THE TRACK. I'll be at Lime Rock next month. bp
When at the track, I was TOTALLY overwhelmed by the enormity of the event. Allot of stuff for my head to process...ALLOT. The thought that I would be in harm's way NEVER entered my mind. On the very first yellow warm-up lap a 1980-something Corvette spun! No damage, no problems. During day 2 a BMW 328 got a wheel in the dirt, came back on the track, snapped around, hit the barrier going backward and flipped onto its roof. Driver(solo)was okay, although someone mentioned that he had an elevated heart rate. I went to look at the car afterward and there was junk scattered around inside...hair brushes, coins, maps, etc.. A NO-NO. What-in-the-hell was he thinking?
Now my curiousity gets the best of me and I register for Mont Tremblant. My mind has a permanent imprint of what I need to do to be safe and smooth when on the track (not to mention the Armcos at the Glen). Again, being in harm's way never entered my mind. In the morning session some excitement occurred. A young man in a red GTI overcooked turn 1 and put its nose into the barrier...slight damage, fixable, no injuries. This driver, only hours earlier, was bragging at how well he did at WG 1, should be soloing blah-blah-blah, needs more HP on the ground...blah-blah-blah. The second day, two Audis came together (solos) when one driver tried to "squeeze in" for position...position for WHAT? Moderate damage, fixable, no injuries. Any these incidences could occurr at any time, collect anyone or more and can be serious at the speeds we are running if you forget why we are here. Harm's way...it's there every second you're on the track, ESPECIALLY when others forget why we are here. PLEASE THINK ABOUT OTHERS WHEN ON THE TRACK. I'll be at Lime Rock next month. bp
05-10-2006, 04:53 AM
#2
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Even being at a track is inherently dangerous. As Pete said below, rule 1
is any car on a track is subject to being wrecked. I think the outlash against IFLYSOLO - primarily because he wasn't listening to his instructor - goes to the point that safety on a track is a shared responsibility. You have to hope that everyone on the track "Gets it". The only, and I mean only win at one of these events is when you drive your car home, had fun, and learned something new.
05-10-2006, 05:29 AM
#3
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...exactly. : )
05-10-2006, 06:06 AM
#4
You and I have roughly the same profile. I'm 45, drive a nice, totally stock, German...
... sport sedan that is also my daily driver, and I enjoy a track day once or twice each year. I have had fleeting thoughts that the danger level was something I had not bargained on, but each time I attend an event, and build confidence in myself, I am more willing to accept the risk.
But...
> This assumes that an event is safely run -- and that is largely determined by the participants and the enforcement of rules. This is why I dwell in the mid- to low- run groups. And I favor Audi Club events b/c the owners are a bit more mature. Folks in the top run groups are often competitive racers who are accustomed to running door-to-door. Those same folks are also the instructors, and they may not always see the need to enforce passing rules in the lower run groups.
> You can to a great extent control your exposure to risk. I have rarely seen (let alone been involved in) incidents where participants put MY *** at risk. Most incidents are single-car incidents.
> Some tracks are safer than others. That's why I like VIR. There is SO much room around the track. WG is the opposite. Lots of walls. I've avoided Summit Point's Shenandoah Course for that reason. Drop a wheel, overcorrect, and you have a LOT of explaining to do.
> I do think that a new track is intimidating, and they should allow new drivers a LOT more time to get familiar with it. I like to download in-car videos and see the track at least 50X from the driver's perspective.
> In the end, you need to be wary of the mindset of others on the track. See the link below and related string. There are plenty of folks who think of this as a version of extreme sports.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/43126.phtml">Example of someone with the wrong mindset.</a></li></ul>
But...
> This assumes that an event is safely run -- and that is largely determined by the participants and the enforcement of rules. This is why I dwell in the mid- to low- run groups. And I favor Audi Club events b/c the owners are a bit more mature. Folks in the top run groups are often competitive racers who are accustomed to running door-to-door. Those same folks are also the instructors, and they may not always see the need to enforce passing rules in the lower run groups.
> You can to a great extent control your exposure to risk. I have rarely seen (let alone been involved in) incidents where participants put MY *** at risk. Most incidents are single-car incidents.
> Some tracks are safer than others. That's why I like VIR. There is SO much room around the track. WG is the opposite. Lots of walls. I've avoided Summit Point's Shenandoah Course for that reason. Drop a wheel, overcorrect, and you have a LOT of explaining to do.
> I do think that a new track is intimidating, and they should allow new drivers a LOT more time to get familiar with it. I like to download in-car videos and see the track at least 50X from the driver's perspective.
> In the end, you need to be wary of the mindset of others on the track. See the link below and related string. There are plenty of folks who think of this as a version of extreme sports.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/43126.phtml">Example of someone with the wrong mindset.</a></li></ul>
05-10-2006, 07:01 AM
#5
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Well...
As being an individual that was on the track during a test day...and seeing two people DIE in their cars due to a high speed collision...I have a new respect for the seriousness of driving a car on a track. You really shouldn't be at these events if:
1) You are not prepared to lose your car..ie. totalled.
2) You cannot drive defensively at all times
These are driver safety seminars...where you explore the envelope...but at which there are serious decisions to be made at every corner. Please choose wisely.
1) You are not prepared to lose your car..ie. totalled.
2) You cannot drive defensively at all times
These are driver safety seminars...where you explore the envelope...but at which there are serious decisions to be made at every corner. Please choose wisely.
05-10-2006, 07:35 AM
#6
Safety first, always, always, always.
A few notes...
The driver of the GTI who crashed had been bragging to his *instructor* that he had "natural talent" because he played lots of Grand Turismo. Accident waiting to happen. Fortunately he learned his lesson and nobody was hurt (though his instructor was a bit shaken up), and apparently after that incident he calmed way down and actually improved his driving quite a bit.
The car-car incident was not solo students, it was instructors. Trust me, the parties involved were disciplined.
Two incidents last year (one was the BMW, one was a good friend of mine) at WGI were both the same mistake -- too early/fast into turn 10, tracking out too far, dipping wheel, and responding wrong thus sending the car across the track into the tire wall. These were both advanced students; perhaps what needs to be done is occasionally sending advanced students back through a 'skills exercise' as well to make sure the basic car control skills don't rot.
It's very easy to get hot-headed out there and be unsafe. I think a lot of people are very sane out there, and I generally feel comfortable (though no illusions that it's a safe place to be) on the track.
That said, I think clubs as a whole need to get better about recognizing aggressive driving and having no tolerance for it. There are a few different things that we as a club need to watch out for -- the novice driver who thinks he's hot stuff (like IFLYSOLO), the more advanced driver who thinks he's more advanced than he is, anyone who thinks they're out there to race.
I think the Audi Club is one of the best clubs out there when it comes to recognizing and dealing with unsafe behavior, though. Accidents *will* happen at these events. However, they are rare for beginner students, and almost unheard of for beginner students who don't think they're hot stuff.
The driver of the GTI who crashed had been bragging to his *instructor* that he had "natural talent" because he played lots of Grand Turismo. Accident waiting to happen. Fortunately he learned his lesson and nobody was hurt (though his instructor was a bit shaken up), and apparently after that incident he calmed way down and actually improved his driving quite a bit.
The car-car incident was not solo students, it was instructors. Trust me, the parties involved were disciplined.
Two incidents last year (one was the BMW, one was a good friend of mine) at WGI were both the same mistake -- too early/fast into turn 10, tracking out too far, dipping wheel, and responding wrong thus sending the car across the track into the tire wall. These were both advanced students; perhaps what needs to be done is occasionally sending advanced students back through a 'skills exercise' as well to make sure the basic car control skills don't rot.
It's very easy to get hot-headed out there and be unsafe. I think a lot of people are very sane out there, and I generally feel comfortable (though no illusions that it's a safe place to be) on the track.
That said, I think clubs as a whole need to get better about recognizing aggressive driving and having no tolerance for it. There are a few different things that we as a club need to watch out for -- the novice driver who thinks he's hot stuff (like IFLYSOLO), the more advanced driver who thinks he's more advanced than he is, anyone who thinks they're out there to race.
I think the Audi Club is one of the best clubs out there when it comes to recognizing and dealing with unsafe behavior, though. Accidents *will* happen at these events. However, they are rare for beginner students, and almost unheard of for beginner students who don't think they're hot stuff.
05-10-2006, 07:59 AM
#7
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
.. "advanced" = "overconfidence". Maybe the students should have a chance to express...
their concerns, i.e., instructors assisting in utilization of rear view mirrors to allow proper passing/point-by rather than having a train of 10-12 cars backed up and slowing the entire venue. Another is to assist the driver to correctly identify passing zones and making the driver aware of corner workers/flag ID. There's allot to process. Most instructors are "on top of their game" but a few don't appreciate the heavy responsibility for safe practices they must enforce imo. Maybe add another class beyond green for the pure novice like me. My first 2 days at WG 2 were immensely overwhelming and I depended on my instructor for the additional set of eyes so I could concentrate on driving safely.
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05-10-2006, 08:06 AM
#8
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Seen several races at VIR...alot of room, but it seems to be very fast.
05-10-2006, 08:14 AM
#9
The Glen is a *very* tough track to learn with all those turns
I think it's a lousy beginner track for that reason.
Most instructors have been great, in my experience, at getting people to be efficient about getting traffic past them, etc.
However, some students are... well... difficult enough that the instructor may have his hands full. Cars filling the mirrors makes some drivers nervous, and it's tough to make the person more comfortable. It's easy to forget as a more advanced driver for whom driving on the track has become 'comfortable' just how overwhelming it is for some students.
The flip side of this all is that if you get held up for a lap, Big Freaking Deal. Pit in and wait for a clear track. If you're held up lap after lap, then pit in and complain to control. But people get all bent out of shape when their momentum is hurt by a slow driver who won't point them by or who can only get a few cars by him at a time so you have to wait a bit...
Traffic management involves both the passers and the passees; the slower and the faster cars. Patients on both sides is essential.
Most instructors have been great, in my experience, at getting people to be efficient about getting traffic past them, etc.
However, some students are... well... difficult enough that the instructor may have his hands full. Cars filling the mirrors makes some drivers nervous, and it's tough to make the person more comfortable. It's easy to forget as a more advanced driver for whom driving on the track has become 'comfortable' just how overwhelming it is for some students.
The flip side of this all is that if you get held up for a lap, Big Freaking Deal. Pit in and wait for a clear track. If you're held up lap after lap, then pit in and complain to control. But people get all bent out of shape when their momentum is hurt by a slow driver who won't point them by or who can only get a few cars by him at a time so you have to wait a bit...
Traffic management involves both the passers and the passees; the slower and the faster cars. Patients on both sides is essential.
05-10-2006, 08:22 AM
#10
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Totally agree. :-)