Question again - maybe others besides Young will reply
05-07-2002, 11:27 AM
#53
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Example of 2500$ track car:
Liam spent as much on safety equipment as I spent on my whole car:
Excluding the cost of driver equipment, here is the breakdown of costs for my budget track car, all prices in Canadian dollars:
-1988 Civic with blueprinted engine and 6-point roll cage and a crapload of spare parts: 2100$
-used Sparco Sprint seat: 130$
-stripping interior: free
-Sabelt Harness: 200$
-used race tires with used steel rims: 100$
-Hawk pads: 95$
-new tranny: 300$
-2 replacement braided steel brake lines: 110$
-H&R race springs: 250$
-KYB shocks: 245$
There: 3530$ CAD and I'm on the track. Actually, yesterday was my first test, one 20 minute session, everything is cool, just had to change to a higher quality brake fluid after the event.
Extras I bought
Other items bought:
-used lightweight wheels: 200$
-8 more used race tires: 140$
-kill switch: 35$
-fire extinguisher: 50$
-new axles: 120$ (not installed yet)
The car is street legal, eligible for all track days, near eligible for EMRA road racing (very close now) and also soon to be eligible for the local road-race series. Of course, I spent like 800$ on personal safety equipment as well, but it's still a low-budget project that seems to be working out really well. When I'm used to the car and want more power, a 160 hp VTEC (enough for 1900 pounds) is another 1500-2000$ installed. Anybody can re-create this project with an 88-91 Civic or CRX for roughly the same money. I've never driven 400 hp S4's on the track, but I can tell you that my car is fun to drive.
Vince
Excluding the cost of driver equipment, here is the breakdown of costs for my budget track car, all prices in Canadian dollars:
-1988 Civic with blueprinted engine and 6-point roll cage and a crapload of spare parts: 2100$
-used Sparco Sprint seat: 130$
-stripping interior: free
-Sabelt Harness: 200$
-used race tires with used steel rims: 100$
-Hawk pads: 95$
-new tranny: 300$
-2 replacement braided steel brake lines: 110$
-H&R race springs: 250$
-KYB shocks: 245$
There: 3530$ CAD and I'm on the track. Actually, yesterday was my first test, one 20 minute session, everything is cool, just had to change to a higher quality brake fluid after the event.
Extras I bought
Other items bought:
-used lightweight wheels: 200$
-8 more used race tires: 140$
-kill switch: 35$
-fire extinguisher: 50$
-new axles: 120$ (not installed yet)
The car is street legal, eligible for all track days, near eligible for EMRA road racing (very close now) and also soon to be eligible for the local road-race series. Of course, I spent like 800$ on personal safety equipment as well, but it's still a low-budget project that seems to be working out really well. When I'm used to the car and want more power, a 160 hp VTEC (enough for 1900 pounds) is another 1500-2000$ installed. Anybody can re-create this project with an 88-91 Civic or CRX for roughly the same money. I've never driven 400 hp S4's on the track, but I can tell you that my car is fun to drive.
Vince
05-09-2002, 04:44 AM
#54
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My take:
1. Not in the S4. The problem as I see it is the fact that you can't trust many of the other students on the track; when they take you out, you're stuck with the remaining payments on your ~$40k car.
2. There is no point in renting a race-prepped car for DE events; the car's limits in each of those cases (except maybe SSB/SSC) will be too high to learn control at the limit. This is especially the case when there are limited passing zones, point-bys, and a widely varied mix of driver skill on the track at any one time. Besides, at that total cost (event + rental), you are approaching the cost/day of recognized schools (Skip, et al.).
3. According to some PCA blokes around here, insurance is available, but at a rate several times higher than you quote. At $100, I would take that policy if it included time trials as well as DE.
These questions (or variations thereof) have weighed heavily on me this season. The resolution: buying a dedicated track car and moving up to wheel-to-wheel racing instead of just time trials in my street car. There are plenty of cheap ways of getting in -- I've selected one of the more popular currently, SpecMiata. My '90 Miata has a ways to go yet, but at least I now have a car that I can drive at the limit, both because the limit is approachable at a sane speed/risk level and because the total investment is low enough that I am willing to risk racing damage.
BTW, the rates you quote for rentals are similar to what is available for rentals at Regional events and SCCA Schools here in the NorthEast.
2. There is no point in renting a race-prepped car for DE events; the car's limits in each of those cases (except maybe SSB/SSC) will be too high to learn control at the limit. This is especially the case when there are limited passing zones, point-bys, and a widely varied mix of driver skill on the track at any one time. Besides, at that total cost (event + rental), you are approaching the cost/day of recognized schools (Skip, et al.).
3. According to some PCA blokes around here, insurance is available, but at a rate several times higher than you quote. At $100, I would take that policy if it included time trials as well as DE.
These questions (or variations thereof) have weighed heavily on me this season. The resolution: buying a dedicated track car and moving up to wheel-to-wheel racing instead of just time trials in my street car. There are plenty of cheap ways of getting in -- I've selected one of the more popular currently, SpecMiata. My '90 Miata has a ways to go yet, but at least I now have a car that I can drive at the limit, both because the limit is approachable at a sane speed/risk level and because the total investment is low enough that I am willing to risk racing damage.
BTW, the rates you quote for rentals are similar to what is available for rentals at Regional events and SCCA Schools here in the NorthEast.
05-10-2002, 05:51 AM
#55
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John- questions
Now you've scared me- at a DE session, is there no insurance through the organizers to cover personal injury and medical losses?
Considering that your standard automotive policy may not cover track events of any sort, there is no way I'm doing a track event if I'm to be held personally liable in case I ball up my car and the instructor sitting next to me gets hurt.
Pls. email me direct if you want to talk about this off-line. Thanks.
TM
Considering that your standard automotive policy may not cover track events of any sort, there is no way I'm doing a track event if I'm to be held personally liable in case I ball up my car and the instructor sitting next to me gets hurt.
Pls. email me direct if you want to talk about this off-line. Thanks.
TM
05-10-2002, 08:39 AM
#56
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Answers:
You've asked a really good question, since most people have absolutely no idea what their rights and obligations are regarding insurance at DE events.
As far as I know, there are no DE/HPDE event organizers, other than SCCA and maybe NASA, that have participant medical insurance coverage.
Event organizers are required by each track to have "insurance", but that is a requirement to obtain LIABILITY insurance. That insurance covers just the track facility and associated businesses, and their staff. Tracks do not require that their customers (the DE event organizers) provide medical coverage for their participants.
DE events and auto-crosses (as well as racing) run by the SCCA are covered by both their liability policies (thru insurers like K & K) and "excess medical" coverage of up to $1million - "excess medical" being those costs that your own primary heath insurance doesn't cover (and if you don't have ANY, then the SCCA insurance covers all of it). NASA has a $50,000 "excess medical" coverage for participants. These are the only two groups that I know of that have ANY kind of medical insurance coverage.
You sign all sorts of waivers whenever you sign up for a DE event, and sign even more when you enter the track facility. Ever read them ? By signing them, you're releasing the track, the DE event organizers and all their second cousins from any obligation to you if you're injured, killed, or suffer any other kind of loss. You're on your own, sweetheart. If you crash, either your medical insurance covers it, or your automotive policy covers it (depends on the state and your policy). If someone is in your car with you and is injured, their medical insurance might cover it, but their medical insurer might go after your auto insurer. If your auto insurer has a specific exclusion for any track activities, the person on the hook is YOU.
No one seems to understand this. Some are probably just in denial.
The change in auto insurance exclusions, helped along by the major turmoil in the insurance markets since last fall, will probably kill off a lot of the smaller DE clubs in the next two years. Track insurance rates are SKYROCKETING right now. Just wait till next year.
When I'm racing with the SCCA, in a huge pack of cars, with people crashing and flipping and causing the usual carnage, I'm safer and have better insurance coverage than if I'm poodling around the track at 5/10ths in the passenger seat of some newbie students' M3.
As far as I know, there are no DE/HPDE event organizers, other than SCCA and maybe NASA, that have participant medical insurance coverage.
Event organizers are required by each track to have "insurance", but that is a requirement to obtain LIABILITY insurance. That insurance covers just the track facility and associated businesses, and their staff. Tracks do not require that their customers (the DE event organizers) provide medical coverage for their participants.
DE events and auto-crosses (as well as racing) run by the SCCA are covered by both their liability policies (thru insurers like K & K) and "excess medical" coverage of up to $1million - "excess medical" being those costs that your own primary heath insurance doesn't cover (and if you don't have ANY, then the SCCA insurance covers all of it). NASA has a $50,000 "excess medical" coverage for participants. These are the only two groups that I know of that have ANY kind of medical insurance coverage.
You sign all sorts of waivers whenever you sign up for a DE event, and sign even more when you enter the track facility. Ever read them ? By signing them, you're releasing the track, the DE event organizers and all their second cousins from any obligation to you if you're injured, killed, or suffer any other kind of loss. You're on your own, sweetheart. If you crash, either your medical insurance covers it, or your automotive policy covers it (depends on the state and your policy). If someone is in your car with you and is injured, their medical insurance might cover it, but their medical insurer might go after your auto insurer. If your auto insurer has a specific exclusion for any track activities, the person on the hook is YOU.
No one seems to understand this. Some are probably just in denial.
The change in auto insurance exclusions, helped along by the major turmoil in the insurance markets since last fall, will probably kill off a lot of the smaller DE clubs in the next two years. Track insurance rates are SKYROCKETING right now. Just wait till next year.
When I'm racing with the SCCA, in a huge pack of cars, with people crashing and flipping and causing the usual carnage, I'm safer and have better insurance coverage than if I'm poodling around the track at 5/10ths in the passenger seat of some newbie students' M3.
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