anyone tried this to reduce brake fade @ the track?
12-17-2002, 05:44 AM
#1
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anyone tried this to reduce brake fade @ the track?
its an idea .. but I have no idea if it really helps? why not right.. Im sure someone has or will make it for our cars... something metal that would stick out around the pad like a heatsink on a cpu would help get heat away from the pad!<ul><li><a href="http://www.seinesystems.com/BrakeFade-2.htm">brake fade spacer</a></li></ul>
12-17-2002, 06:02 AM
#2
Brake fade is not a problem for those with big brakes typically :)
I'm sure it could help some, to what degree is unknown though. You are basically trying to stop heat transfer from the pads to the pistons/fluid.
More than likely, the problem is going to be pad fade and not brake fluid fade.
More than likely, the problem is going to be pad fade and not brake fluid fade.
12-17-2002, 07:43 AM
#3
not quite pad fade - the heat boils the fluid - that's the main point of trying to use the highest
wet/dry point out there. The main problem is the brakes get spongy whether big brakes or small after lots of track driving because of vapor buildup when the fluid boils. I use home fabricated stainless steel plates on the pads for that purpose. Without them, brake fade was very apparent very quickly on my other car - it's a little trick not quite shared 
12-17-2002, 09:11 AM
#4
Yep, these seems interesting. I still have to manage my AP 4-pots at the track...
...or I'll start to boil the fluid. 390hp + 3600 lbs. + Kumhos = boiling fluid after a few hard laps.
12-17-2002, 10:41 AM
#5
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Several points...
You SHOULD use direct venting if you track these big pigs. I vent on a stripped car. You can get these and proper hoses at ANY race great store/catalog for a reason. This will allow you to continue to use a stock braking system.
You wouldn't need anything if you used a decent race pad with a ceramic barrier between the compound and the backpad (See pagid race and KVR, etc.) You think Ti has low conductivity, lol.
The Ti barrier as shown does nothing for the piston surfaces, that is where you get conduction. The plate at best reduces radiant and convective heat. The ceramic barrier pad reduces all three.
Pad fade can be eliminated by using the aformentioned pads, or even stock pads with venting.
Fade from boilover is a RED LIGHT. You should be using Castrol SRF in Audis (dual brake clutch MCs) if you get boilover. I have never seen boiling in a vented car (Even my lapping Tahoe).
I've posted a lot here and in the race forum on this, if you want more detail.
You wouldn't need anything if you used a decent race pad with a ceramic barrier between the compound and the backpad (See pagid race and KVR, etc.) You think Ti has low conductivity, lol.
The Ti barrier as shown does nothing for the piston surfaces, that is where you get conduction. The plate at best reduces radiant and convective heat. The ceramic barrier pad reduces all three.
Pad fade can be eliminated by using the aformentioned pads, or even stock pads with venting.
Fade from boilover is a RED LIGHT. You should be using Castrol SRF in Audis (dual brake clutch MCs) if you get boilover. I have never seen boiling in a vented car (Even my lapping Tahoe).
I've posted a lot here and in the race forum on this, if you want more detail.
12-17-2002, 10:49 AM
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thanks I'll read some more. I have brake vents and I use carbotech xp pads. I think a heat
sink of some kind would be helpful for getting heat out of the pads. the brake vents are good but its difficult design a set that can get lots of air to the center of the rotor. have you seen a design that works? please post if you have becase I've built 4 diffrent designs for brake vents and I'm still struggleing to make somethin that works well on the a4. most of the sets of i've seen are for rear wheel drive cars.
I dont really know how to tell if the fluid is boiling but it always splashes out of the mc. I bleed after each track day and replace the fluid often. I used motul 600 for a time but now I use val. supersync becase its cheap and i can replace it often.. it usualy turns brown quickly and the ****e in the clutch turns black. all I know is I need a to get rid of more heat. thanks
I dont really know how to tell if the fluid is boiling but it always splashes out of the mc. I bleed after each track day and replace the fluid often. I used motul 600 for a time but now I use val. supersync becase its cheap and i can replace it often.. it usualy turns brown quickly and the ****e in the clutch turns black. all I know is I need a to get rid of more heat. thanks
12-17-2002, 12:07 PM
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my track tires take load off the brakes I think...
when I run with street tires my brakes REALLY pay for it.. but with track tires stock brakes arnt that bad...I only have about 200hp though
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12-17-2002, 12:44 PM
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Sure...
Val. Syn. does turn brown faster than anything I have seen. Add to that, it is not nearly as hydrophobic (hydroscopic) as even castrol LMA. On the Truck I've even had ice crystals form in the res., even though I flush it 3x a year. I've since switched to Super Blue for that vehicle.
The venting doesn't need to be to the center of the disk. In your case, the shield needs to be clipped to allow the hose to come in right at the caliper. There are at least two different brake shields on the A4, but the premise is the same.
Either rivet a new metal elbow and cut away the sheld to fit, or form a crude rim on the shield and use stiff brake vent hose and a carefully fitted set of hangers for full-motion.
In your case, I would get some brake tape and see what the actual temps are, on the rear rim face and the caliper (F/R).
Understanding that the brake system is purely street and that you already have open rims, the vent should work (if anything they usually have to be blocked off). I would wonder, no insult intended, if you are on your brakes too long?
With my pagids, I can feel them transition up the friction curve from cold to warm to hot, to very hot by the grip alone. Then I modulate them accordingly.
The venting doesn't need to be to the center of the disk. In your case, the shield needs to be clipped to allow the hose to come in right at the caliper. There are at least two different brake shields on the A4, but the premise is the same.
Either rivet a new metal elbow and cut away the sheld to fit, or form a crude rim on the shield and use stiff brake vent hose and a carefully fitted set of hangers for full-motion.
In your case, I would get some brake tape and see what the actual temps are, on the rear rim face and the caliper (F/R).
Understanding that the brake system is purely street and that you already have open rims, the vent should work (if anything they usually have to be blocked off). I would wonder, no insult intended, if you are on your brakes too long?
With my pagids, I can feel them transition up the friction curve from cold to warm to hot, to very hot by the grip alone. Then I modulate them accordingly.
12-17-2002, 07:08 PM
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I think you missed what I was talking about...
"Understanding that the brake system is purely street" well I'm not sure where you got that idea but I mentioned the track in both posts buts... that's ok.
I was simply talking about adding some kind of heat sink as away to disperse heat from the pad. The ceramic layer your talking about may help keep heat out of the piston but not getting any heat out of the pad, and pad fade is the problem. I was thinking if we could make a heat sink for the pad it would be cool.. but since the claper is in the way it would be kinda hard.
My stock brakes do fine on the track with my carbotech panther XP pads. They are one of the best track pads you can get imho. I just wish they were alittle bigger because they can start getting a little weak when I'm out on the track playing with fast cars, during long sessions.
I was simply talking about adding some kind of heat sink as away to disperse heat from the pad. The ceramic layer your talking about may help keep heat out of the piston but not getting any heat out of the pad, and pad fade is the problem. I was thinking if we could make a heat sink for the pad it would be cool.. but since the claper is in the way it would be kinda hard.
My stock brakes do fine on the track with my carbotech panther XP pads. They are one of the best track pads you can get imho. I just wish they were alittle bigger because they can start getting a little weak when I'm out on the track playing with fast cars, during long sessions.