Fuel management questions, serious help needed on system choices. PLEASE
05-12-2003, 05:56 PM
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Fuel management questions, serious help needed on system choices. PLEASE
Okay, i've got an issue that i'm sure somebody here can help me solve.
I've talked to lots of people about the proper way to set up a larger turbo upgrade for my vehicle and how to maintain great air/fuel/timing etc...
My plans are a Garret GT30R with of course an upgraded fuel system and ignition system, but have problems knowing and researching the best ways to handle the ECU info.
What i've been told & have figured out is that i have about 4 choices:
1) Run an aftermarket ECU and only put down about 4 more psi than normal and the built in adaptives will be just fine ( i hate this idea, it will give me very little)
2) Run a piggyback computer like a Unichip (aka UTEC for WRX crowd) or S-AFC, this i hear is a fairly good way to go and should cost around 700 for the unit w/ boost controller and another 500 to tune it.
3) run a standalone like a TEC2, but this isn't really something i can afford, 2000 just for the box, and then another 1000 to get it running properly, no thanks.
4) Get a GIAC tuner to open up the software on their program and dyno tune everything in, i talked to Jeremy @ matrixengineering (sponsor of the 1.8T challenge and producer of many great kits and cars in the area) and he said that tuning the Garret software runs about 600 dollars PER HOUR and it would take at least 3 hours to get stuff right.
So basically i'm feeling like i'm fvcked hardcore and need some advice. The reason I post here is because not many people in the volvo crowd have done turbo swaps, and all you know how this goes down.
plus, if i wanted the info i'd have to ask the swedes, and no pa svenska, lol.
THANKS A TON, i hope somebody responds.
I've talked to lots of people about the proper way to set up a larger turbo upgrade for my vehicle and how to maintain great air/fuel/timing etc...
My plans are a Garret GT30R with of course an upgraded fuel system and ignition system, but have problems knowing and researching the best ways to handle the ECU info.
What i've been told & have figured out is that i have about 4 choices:
1) Run an aftermarket ECU and only put down about 4 more psi than normal and the built in adaptives will be just fine ( i hate this idea, it will give me very little)
2) Run a piggyback computer like a Unichip (aka UTEC for WRX crowd) or S-AFC, this i hear is a fairly good way to go and should cost around 700 for the unit w/ boost controller and another 500 to tune it.
3) run a standalone like a TEC2, but this isn't really something i can afford, 2000 just for the box, and then another 1000 to get it running properly, no thanks.
4) Get a GIAC tuner to open up the software on their program and dyno tune everything in, i talked to Jeremy @ matrixengineering (sponsor of the 1.8T challenge and producer of many great kits and cars in the area) and he said that tuning the Garret software runs about 600 dollars PER HOUR and it would take at least 3 hours to get stuff right.
So basically i'm feeling like i'm fvcked hardcore and need some advice. The reason I post here is because not many people in the volvo crowd have done turbo swaps, and all you know how this goes down.
plus, if i wanted the info i'd have to ask the swedes, and no pa svenska, lol.
THANKS A TON, i hope somebody responds.
05-13-2003, 05:49 PM
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Look into the wolf 3D system and call these guys in Bellevue WA carbconn.com
Ask for Alex he is the owner. These guys do some really crazy stuff and they are not over the top expensive. They also have an in house dyno. Hope this helps, by the way your T5-R is sweet my roommate has one. Regards Adam
05-13-2003, 07:28 PM
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What's your stock ECU like?
does it use a MAF sensor, or a MAP sensor?
If it's a MAF sensor:
Fuel can be done by going to a larger MAF housing and bigger injectors, or by using an additional injector controller.
The problem with a bigger MAF housing and injectors, is it throws the load calculations off, and it may advance the timing too much, causing detonation. It all depends on just how much bigger your injectors need to be.
Factory timing settings tend to be a little on the conservative side to begin with, so you might be OK by playing with the MAF voltages.
Another option is an additional injector controller. The ECU acts like normal, until a certain boost threshold is reached, and then additional fuel is injected. As long as your timing isn't too aggressive, it will work.
Or piggyback it with a Unichip, or you can try an SMT6 from <a href="http://www.perfectpower.com">Perfect Power</a>
If it's a MAF sensor:
Fuel can be done by going to a larger MAF housing and bigger injectors, or by using an additional injector controller.
The problem with a bigger MAF housing and injectors, is it throws the load calculations off, and it may advance the timing too much, causing detonation. It all depends on just how much bigger your injectors need to be.
Factory timing settings tend to be a little on the conservative side to begin with, so you might be OK by playing with the MAF voltages.
Another option is an additional injector controller. The ECU acts like normal, until a certain boost threshold is reached, and then additional fuel is injected. As long as your timing isn't too aggressive, it will work.
Or piggyback it with a Unichip, or you can try an SMT6 from <a href="http://www.perfectpower.com">Perfect Power</a>
05-13-2003, 07:34 PM
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JOHN, just who jason said would be good to hear from:
It's a motronic 4.3 system, MAF only. I'm a little weary of just letting a larger MAF handle the calculations and would rather have it down to a more scientific process.
I know you had a 2.0 with a larger turbo, what did you do/what would you recommend to somebody looking to go with a larger turbo system in a car that has NO aftermarket programming for bigger FI systems.
Thanks a ton,
David
btw, IM= fhd16 if you want to talk that way.
I know you had a 2.0 with a larger turbo, what did you do/what would you recommend to somebody looking to go with a larger turbo system in a car that has NO aftermarket programming for bigger FI systems.
Thanks a ton,
David
btw, IM= fhd16 if you want to talk that way.
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05-13-2003, 10:13 PM
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Yep, I've got a 2.0 conversion, and not a whole lot of support....
I've been messing around for a while trying to figure out how I'm going to get this thing tuned.
I paid $650 for a chip that got my car close, but my injectors are still too small, and since the stock MAF is junk, I had to buy something bigger and more reliable. Because the MAF is bigger, I had to buy an A/F controller.
I'm hoping that the guys I bought the chip from will help with the tuning (I did pay $650 after all) but I haven't persued it, because the car isn't ready. Still, I have around $1300 invested in engine management stuff (and no timing control), and it's still not tuned.
Had I thoroughly thought this out beforehand, I would have given a lot more thought to a stand-alone system.
On the other-hand, had I waited for a stand-alone, and not driven the car, then I wouldn't have gotten a lot of the bugs worked out of it like I do now.
Another piggyback option you could look at is <a href="http://www.splitsec.com/">Split Second</a>
Any way you go, you still need to get the big turbo installed. You may want to consider just going ahead and installing it, and seeing how much of your budget is left over. The car should certainly be driveable with stock injectors and big turbo (with small boost)
After you have any bugs worked out, then you can decide how you (and your budget) should proceed.
A couple things you'll need to know:
Any idea what size injectors you have? What size do you want to use? What's the stock boost pressure? How much boost do you want to run? Does the ECU have knock sensors? How "safe" is the stock timing control? (you may have to talk to a tuner on that one)
Your choices are:
A) Additional fuel controller with two additional injectors, everything else stock.
Done correctly, this can work very well. The big IF, is whether the stock chip's timing is too aggressive for the extra boost you'll be running.
Should be fairly easy to tune though. This is probably the cheapest option.
B) Piggy-back fuel and timing. Can work good, depending on how much modification you need to do the signals going to the ECU.
Slightly more expensive, and a little more tricky to tune, as changes to fuel will affect both fuel and timing. It is, however, the next best thing to a stand alone
C) Stand-alone. Full control over everything. Lots of cool adjustable outputs, switchable maps, etc, etc
Lot more expensive, and harder to tune.
Units to check out are: Haltech, Autronics, TEC, and Motec (from cheapest to most expensive)
These are the only units I would even consider. I was looking really hard at a Haltech E6K, which is about half the price of an Autronic, but only gives up a few features. The Haltech is also pretty easy to program from what I've heard.
Haltech also just release a new ECU, the E11, but it's new, and probably doesn't have all the bugs worked out.
Wow, this is a pretty long reply, and it's not even full details. Hope this helps, but it will probably raise even more questions
I paid $650 for a chip that got my car close, but my injectors are still too small, and since the stock MAF is junk, I had to buy something bigger and more reliable. Because the MAF is bigger, I had to buy an A/F controller.
I'm hoping that the guys I bought the chip from will help with the tuning (I did pay $650 after all) but I haven't persued it, because the car isn't ready. Still, I have around $1300 invested in engine management stuff (and no timing control), and it's still not tuned.
Had I thoroughly thought this out beforehand, I would have given a lot more thought to a stand-alone system.
On the other-hand, had I waited for a stand-alone, and not driven the car, then I wouldn't have gotten a lot of the bugs worked out of it like I do now.
Another piggyback option you could look at is <a href="http://www.splitsec.com/">Split Second</a>
Any way you go, you still need to get the big turbo installed. You may want to consider just going ahead and installing it, and seeing how much of your budget is left over. The car should certainly be driveable with stock injectors and big turbo (with small boost)
After you have any bugs worked out, then you can decide how you (and your budget) should proceed.
A couple things you'll need to know:
Any idea what size injectors you have? What size do you want to use? What's the stock boost pressure? How much boost do you want to run? Does the ECU have knock sensors? How "safe" is the stock timing control? (you may have to talk to a tuner on that one)
Your choices are:
A) Additional fuel controller with two additional injectors, everything else stock.
Done correctly, this can work very well. The big IF, is whether the stock chip's timing is too aggressive for the extra boost you'll be running.
Should be fairly easy to tune though. This is probably the cheapest option.
B) Piggy-back fuel and timing. Can work good, depending on how much modification you need to do the signals going to the ECU.
Slightly more expensive, and a little more tricky to tune, as changes to fuel will affect both fuel and timing. It is, however, the next best thing to a stand alone
C) Stand-alone. Full control over everything. Lots of cool adjustable outputs, switchable maps, etc, etc
Lot more expensive, and harder to tune.
Units to check out are: Haltech, Autronics, TEC, and Motec (from cheapest to most expensive)
These are the only units I would even consider. I was looking really hard at a Haltech E6K, which is about half the price of an Autronic, but only gives up a few features. The Haltech is also pretty easy to program from what I've heard.
Haltech also just release a new ECU, the E11, but it's new, and probably doesn't have all the bugs worked out.
Wow, this is a pretty long reply, and it's not even full details. Hope this helps, but it will probably raise even more questions
05-13-2003, 11:20 PM
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You're the man, here's the info you talked about:
My stock ecu has built in knock sensors and stock timing setting isn't all that agressive. These cars definitely know when to kick the timing back as well. Stock injector size is 310cc and i know these, as well as the fuel pump will need to be upgraded, as well as a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, and of course, i know where to get all of these parts to perfectly match the car.
Ignition is no problem, i'm planning on using a Jacobs pro-street ignition system and coil, new magnacore wires and iridium plugs.
So that takes care of fuel/spark, the problem i have is getting the **** to work, at a good ratio in proper boost.
Stock boost pressure on the 850R is 10.5 psi out of a turbo that reaches max efficiency at 16 psi, the reason i want to upgrade is because outside of the exhaust manifold and head work, i've done all the breathing mods you can do to this car and want to elevate the boost to 20 psi peak, but only if i can do it safely and with a larger turbo to be efficient. I know of two manufacturers that make software for the stock turbo unit that put out 310 hp, 330 ft-lbs, and that's a good 4 psi outside of max efficiency, allowing for a better spooling and better flowing turbo to do the same thing would gain me some more hp and give me better response (my goal for the car is not straight line driving only).
So i guess you're exactly the person i needed to talk to, all of this project won't start for many months now, but i'm a big believer in researching a lot to lessen the mistakes, because a blown engine is not what i'm looking for.
So to re-cap, what i want to do is put a better manifold on, GT30R turbo and then it'll have a 3" downpipe, no cat (offroad) and 2.5 afterpipe, intake, throttle body, matched intake manifold etc.... so i just want to keep within a good margin of safety and get the power from the system that i SHOULD, and that means engine managment. I know jeremy @ matrix used a TEC2 on the 2.5RS twin turbo, and i believe on the VR6 turbo i rode in, which pulled like crazy, but this does not mean that there aren't other ways of getting this to work out, and i hope i am not looking at the options of spending 4 grand, or not upgrading at all, because that would just suck.
Thanks again,
David
IM= fhd16
Ignition is no problem, i'm planning on using a Jacobs pro-street ignition system and coil, new magnacore wires and iridium plugs.
So that takes care of fuel/spark, the problem i have is getting the **** to work, at a good ratio in proper boost.
Stock boost pressure on the 850R is 10.5 psi out of a turbo that reaches max efficiency at 16 psi, the reason i want to upgrade is because outside of the exhaust manifold and head work, i've done all the breathing mods you can do to this car and want to elevate the boost to 20 psi peak, but only if i can do it safely and with a larger turbo to be efficient. I know of two manufacturers that make software for the stock turbo unit that put out 310 hp, 330 ft-lbs, and that's a good 4 psi outside of max efficiency, allowing for a better spooling and better flowing turbo to do the same thing would gain me some more hp and give me better response (my goal for the car is not straight line driving only).
So i guess you're exactly the person i needed to talk to, all of this project won't start for many months now, but i'm a big believer in researching a lot to lessen the mistakes, because a blown engine is not what i'm looking for.
So to re-cap, what i want to do is put a better manifold on, GT30R turbo and then it'll have a 3" downpipe, no cat (offroad) and 2.5 afterpipe, intake, throttle body, matched intake manifold etc.... so i just want to keep within a good margin of safety and get the power from the system that i SHOULD, and that means engine managment. I know jeremy @ matrix used a TEC2 on the 2.5RS twin turbo, and i believe on the VR6 turbo i rode in, which pulled like crazy, but this does not mean that there aren't other ways of getting this to work out, and i hope i am not looking at the options of spending 4 grand, or not upgrading at all, because that would just suck.
Thanks again,
David
IM= fhd16