Please help... those with turbo kits (long)
10-13-2004, 08:31 AM
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Please help... those with turbo kits (long)
I have been researching a turbo upgrade for my 02 B6 and have not been able to decide between two. The kits are the PES T28 and the Dahlback/3K modified K04. Obviously the pros to installing the PES kit are the increased horsepower, flexibility for even more horsepower increase, and the kit cost. I say cost because the Dahlback/3K modified K04 w/ injectors and programming are a little less than $4K, which is at the same price range of the PES T28 kit. Now the cons would be the engine structure reliability. From the research, I have found that many state that our engines can only hold 280 chp, but then there is conflicting information that the engine can handle the power due to advanced technology in the casting process and others running the kit without engine failure issues. Another con would be the lag issue, obviously the bigger T28 has more lag (it starts boosting at around 2800-3000 rpm and peaks @ 3600 rpm compared to the K04's 2200-2500 rpm and peak @ 3200 rpm - if I am correct, if not please correct my aproximations). Now for the Dahlback/3K modified K04 seems like a very good turbo that is also provided by a reputable tuner. The pros of this kit would the reliability issue, less lag compared to the T28, and easy installation (eventhough I can perform both installs). The cons are the price which in comparing both, they are in the same range, but the K04 kit does not include an exhaust manifold, MAF housing (MAF sensor possibly included), and custom intake system. Another con would be the horsepower issue. Compared to what I have installed at this present time, which is the APR stage 2+ (chip, exhaust, and injectors) there is not much of an increase in horsepower. I dynoed recently at XX Tuning (the results were posted on AW also), the results were 160 whp/200 wtq on 100 octane program with 97 gas (mixture of 100 and 93)- very disappointing numbers. Obviously the numbers were not even close to the claimed horsepower numbers for my package. In comparison between the two turbo upgrade kits, the KO4 will give around 210whp/225wtq and T28 will give around 225whp/235wtq. Well, as everyone can see I have a very big decision on my hands your advice would be greatly apreciated. TIA. Hope to hear from all of you. Also please note, if anyone knows someone in the NY metropolitan area that has a T28 on their B6 or even a B5 so that I may experience the turbo in person.
10-13-2004, 10:49 AM
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a lot of people had low numbers that day
I'd have a hard time paying Dahlback's price for a K04. The T28 will be faster. APR is saying their 350 hp kit has been reliable on the B6. So it would appear the T28 power shouldn't be an issue. The shortfall of PES has been drive by wire programming. If B6 owners, that are in no way affiliated with PES and or GIAC seem happy, then the programming is probably pretty good.
10-13-2004, 11:09 AM
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I will be in Queens on the 16th, I have a T-28 on a B5.
I'm getting brakes and a few other checked out, but in my opinion, go with the T-28. If you can afford to wait, get the APR 3+. I wish I had the $ for an intercooler right now.. but aside from that the only real problem with my kit is that I'm running rich, that's why I'm going to the shop. Prior to that the car was so much fun to drive, with significant gains in hp, and response, its the best deal, at least as I see it. Give me a call Sat (203)981-1724. Maybe we can meet up and you can check out the kit.
10-13-2004, 08:32 PM
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PES has fixed the DBW issue for the MY 2000, they are going to the 2001 next
and are working on the B6 right now. official results will be posted when everything is all done.
i have logs to back up the MY2000 stuff....
i have logs to back up the MY2000 stuff....
10-14-2004, 04:29 AM
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You got 160whp/200wtq out of, essentially, a chip upgrade and you're complaining?
Try searching the archives for results from other owners and I think you'll see you're looking pretty good. Assuming a 23% driveline loss for a qauttro drive train you're sitting at 208 hp and 260 ft./lbs tq at the crank. Most K04 kits for the B5 are lucky to put down 195 whp with injector upgrades, so I don't know where you get 210 whp. B5 S4s with 250 hp only dyno in the 198 whp range. Be more realistic with your expectations, and do a little research, before you start throwing money at this.
10-15-2004, 04:11 PM
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yes but what kind of dyno were the runs done on. that seems to make a slightly large difference.
a 160 whp dyno on a dynojet or dynapack is good for about 140-145 whp on a maha or a mustang (which i see to be more accurate at least then the first two mentioned, by no means accurate to what the street is).
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10-15-2004, 06:02 PM
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knowing the problem and the solution would be interesting
I think it's going to take knowing that to help people to get over what the perception PES's DBW around here. The only experience I had with it was a ride in their passat. It was a cool day and the car felt nice.
10-16-2004, 05:43 AM
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I have all the more reason to complain...(more)
Yes, I believe I have a right to complain. When I invested $3000 on my car I expect to get what is claimed under the sale of the upgrades. Just note that I was running 100 octane program with 97 octane gas, obviously that came to be because I mixed 93 with 100 so a mathematical aproximation would be 97. The fact is I purchased a program that claimed 215 chp with pump gas (93). We also have to account the exhaust, the K&N drop-in filter, Forge 007 DV, Samco hoses, and 100 octane program. Yes, I know some of the listed upgrades will not give any gains, but just note it as an investment to assist in the performance of the other upgrades. So just to make a breakdown of chp, I should be running 215chp with the chip and injectors alone, then there is the exhaust with about 8-12 chp, the K&N with 2-6 chp, and 100 octane program with 7-15 chp. So the total chp would be around 230 chp, and that would be towards the low side of the aproximation. So, what happened to the numbers? Do you think I have right to complain when I am putting a considerable amount of money into upgrades? Hey, don't take this in anyway as an angry rant towards you for commenting, I just want to make my point clear. The numbers just do not match to the claimed numbers. Look at my dyno it says all (minus 30 chp). Is or is not a big difference from the claims. Also when converting the numbers to chp, I came up with 213.3chp. The claimed numbers for the chip and injectors upgrade was not even met. Lesson learned. Just remember, I still love my Audi and the modding I can do to my Audi. Keep up with the great discussions.
10-16-2004, 05:54 AM
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One more thing...(more)
In reference to your denial that a B6 w/ K04 turbo upgrade cannot get 210 whp. If you would search the AW archives you will find two AWers with MTM stage 3 (K04 turbo, injectors, race cat, and software)with the above mentioned numbers. Here's a little help, their names are Jet Jockey and bhvrdr. Please look it up and you will see for yourself. By the way, I noticed you have an APR stage 3 kit. Have you dynoed the car? What are the numbers? Are the numbers above or below the claimed numbers? Great talkin', gotta go.
Regards,
PiosQ
Regards,
PiosQ