Audi warranty worthless to us
06-07-2018, 03:58 PM
#31
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Audi Q5 brake rotor warp
I suspect that the main issue is not much about corrosion. I doubt if there is corrosion on the face of the rotors, the edges maybe. Any corrosion on the face of the rotors will be burned off due to heat. You mentioned shuddering. Shuddering is a sign of warped rotors. Warped rotors are not covered by Audi Warranty. It is considered wear and tear along with worn brake pads.
The way you pamper your car and how it is stored does not make the brakes last longer. Brakes last longer if you do not apply them aggressively or use them extensively. Driving habits dictate brake wear unless there is a known problem of premature wear for the Q5. I do not own a Q5 so I do not know but I have not heard of such an issue. I do know that my S5 and your Q5 are very heavy vehicles. Coupled with aggressive or extensive use of brakes (especially downhill) will make your brake pads and rotors wear out faster. One way to ease up on the use of brakes is to use engine braking together with the brakes.
Manufacturers will spec 'just the right size' brakes that will do the job for daily driving use. Often times, they're borderline to save production costs. If you know you tend to rely on the brakes heavily or use your car for lots of long drives, it would be best to consider upgrading the brake rotors and pads to something beefier like a Big Brake Kit (BBK) that would take more heat.
I feel sorry for you having to shell out $2,000 for the brake job. Any brake place should have been capable of replacing them at a lower cost. Also, too bad that you were in the middle of your road trip. That $2,000 cost should have gone to beefier brakes.
Your Q5 TDI is a great SUV especially if it is not giving you any headaches. I hope you decide to keep it.
The way you pamper your car and how it is stored does not make the brakes last longer. Brakes last longer if you do not apply them aggressively or use them extensively. Driving habits dictate brake wear unless there is a known problem of premature wear for the Q5. I do not own a Q5 so I do not know but I have not heard of such an issue. I do know that my S5 and your Q5 are very heavy vehicles. Coupled with aggressive or extensive use of brakes (especially downhill) will make your brake pads and rotors wear out faster. One way to ease up on the use of brakes is to use engine braking together with the brakes.
Manufacturers will spec 'just the right size' brakes that will do the job for daily driving use. Often times, they're borderline to save production costs. If you know you tend to rely on the brakes heavily or use your car for lots of long drives, it would be best to consider upgrading the brake rotors and pads to something beefier like a Big Brake Kit (BBK) that would take more heat.
I feel sorry for you having to shell out $2,000 for the brake job. Any brake place should have been capable of replacing them at a lower cost. Also, too bad that you were in the middle of your road trip. That $2,000 cost should have gone to beefier brakes.
Your Q5 TDI is a great SUV especially if it is not giving you any headaches. I hope you decide to keep it.
06-07-2018, 04:57 PM
#32
AudiWorld Super User
I just came across something last week that seemed to say Audi's AWD system uses active wheel braking to reduce torque to a slipping wheel on the axle. So, if that was correct for the Q5, then aggressive or curvy or slippery surface driving would lead to "excessive" pad wear, as the AWD system was secretly applying braking to one or another wheel to control the torque split. I have no idea if this is the case.
But when it comes to rotors warping? If someone told me that low mileage and light use cold cause rotors to warp. I think I'd have a hard time restraining myself. Rotors usually warp from overheating, or from normal heating when the wheel bolts are not evenly torqued down. They NEVER warp without excess heat or uneven torque combined with excess heat, according to anything I've ever heard from any source.
Brakes and front end parts are notorious for rip-off artists, because most drivers have zero comprehension of them and zero ability to work with them, but everyone is in fear of the dangers of "bad" brakes.
"Oh, my rotors warped because I don't drive the car enough? OK, you wait here while I get the tire iron so I can beat you to death with it."
But when it comes to rotors warping? If someone told me that low mileage and light use cold cause rotors to warp. I think I'd have a hard time restraining myself. Rotors usually warp from overheating, or from normal heating when the wheel bolts are not evenly torqued down. They NEVER warp without excess heat or uneven torque combined with excess heat, according to anything I've ever heard from any source.
Brakes and front end parts are notorious for rip-off artists, because most drivers have zero comprehension of them and zero ability to work with them, but everyone is in fear of the dangers of "bad" brakes.
"Oh, my rotors warped because I don't drive the car enough? OK, you wait here while I get the tire iron so I can beat you to death with it."
08-19-2018, 07:09 AM
#33
I think Audi is absolutely to blame for this one. With so few miles (KM) on the vehicle, there is no way a reasonable manufacturer should refuse to cover this short of evidence the vehicle was in a flood. I had an Oldsmobile with warped rotors at 8K miles and it was covered no problem, I'd expect the same from a "luxury" manufacturer. At least split the cost...
08-21-2018, 04:56 AM
#34
AudiWorld Super User
To expand on the rotor overheating is if the brakes are used enough to overheat (hard braking in traffic, hill descent, etc) there needs to be a cooling cycle after, that is one cannot hold their foot on the brake pedal while the pads are hot. This causes localized hot spots on the rotor where the pad is in contact. The warpage is caused by dissimilar temps over the rotor surface. Solution when possible is to take it out of D while at a stop so you don't have the brake pedal depressed or driving several minutes to aid cool-down. Not unlike bedding in a new set of brake pads. .02
08-21-2018, 10:32 AM
#35
AudiWorld Super User
bpp-
I don't totally disagree with you, but after decades of driving multiple cars, and having friends driving more cars, in the worst traffic that the NYC metro area can offer...It is ridiculous to suggest that driving in any normal traffic or roads can overheat rotors and cause them to warp. Maybe tooling down a five mile grade with your foot on the brake and then sitting at a red light at the bottom of the mountain...but nothing in the normal course of driving is going to warp 'em that way, unless there's something else wrong.
Which is why Ford sent around a notice to all dealers, probably 30 years ago, to be more careful about TORQUING LUG NUTS because they had caused massive warping problems on one model. And I can tell you, probably 80% of all shops including car dealers in general, use excess torque on the lug nuts. In one case I found the bolts (not on my Audi) were literally 2x the factory spec after a dealer had pulled the wheel for inspection. Service manager said "Oh, no, that's impossible, we never...." Yeah, tell that to my torque wrench.
I don't totally disagree with you, but after decades of driving multiple cars, and having friends driving more cars, in the worst traffic that the NYC metro area can offer...It is ridiculous to suggest that driving in any normal traffic or roads can overheat rotors and cause them to warp. Maybe tooling down a five mile grade with your foot on the brake and then sitting at a red light at the bottom of the mountain...but nothing in the normal course of driving is going to warp 'em that way, unless there's something else wrong.
Which is why Ford sent around a notice to all dealers, probably 30 years ago, to be more careful about TORQUING LUG NUTS because they had caused massive warping problems on one model. And I can tell you, probably 80% of all shops including car dealers in general, use excess torque on the lug nuts. In one case I found the bolts (not on my Audi) were literally 2x the factory spec after a dealer had pulled the wheel for inspection. Service manager said "Oh, no, that's impossible, we never...." Yeah, tell that to my torque wrench.
09-01-2019, 02:41 AM
#36
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wear and tear is a dealer friendly term to get them legally off the hook. but in spite of that they have much discretion
my a5 sb has 8,000 miles and is 2 years old...but my brake issue started months ago.
first told rust on rotors then that they were warped.
dealer wanted $1,100. to replace front rotors and pads.
he said audi only covers them for the first year.
i said no way, he said he could take off 25%,i said thank you, much appreciated, but no way again.
i asked him to open a case with audi of america,he did they denied.
i then contacted aoa and again they denied.
they claimed wear and tear...i called them on it.
i said with less then 2 years old and 8,000 miles this is the complete opposite of wear and tear.
its lack of wear and tear.
wear and tear to me means i got my moneys worth or i abused the product. and i did neither.
i told them they make a good product, but that in itself is not enough.
when i dont feel im getting good customer service i will make my case . i just did but, i wont argue, i will simply walk.
i reminded, aoa in 2018 i paid around $1000,000. for an a5 and q5, both with audi care.
i told them dont take this as a threat because thats not what it is.
but i do feel the need to inform you that in a couple of years when i look to replace them i will remember audi turning me away with by brake issue.
and audi will not be any of the car brands i consider...they didnt seem to care, and because of that neither do i. and so it goes.
my a5 sb has 8,000 miles and is 2 years old...but my brake issue started months ago.
first told rust on rotors then that they were warped.
dealer wanted $1,100. to replace front rotors and pads.
he said audi only covers them for the first year.
i said no way, he said he could take off 25%,i said thank you, much appreciated, but no way again.
i asked him to open a case with audi of america,he did they denied.
i then contacted aoa and again they denied.
they claimed wear and tear...i called them on it.
i said with less then 2 years old and 8,000 miles this is the complete opposite of wear and tear.
its lack of wear and tear.
wear and tear to me means i got my moneys worth or i abused the product. and i did neither.
i told them they make a good product, but that in itself is not enough.
when i dont feel im getting good customer service i will make my case . i just did but, i wont argue, i will simply walk.
i reminded, aoa in 2018 i paid around $1000,000. for an a5 and q5, both with audi care.
i told them dont take this as a threat because thats not what it is.
but i do feel the need to inform you that in a couple of years when i look to replace them i will remember audi turning me away with by brake issue.
and audi will not be any of the car brands i consider...they didnt seem to care, and because of that neither do i. and so it goes.
Last edited by pal joey; 09-01-2019 at 02:44 AM.
09-01-2019, 08:47 AM
#37
AudiWorld Super User
I just came across something last week that seemed to say Audi's AWD system uses active wheel braking to reduce torque to a slipping wheel on the axle. So, if that was correct for the Q5, then aggressive or curvy or slippery surface driving would lead to "excessive" pad wear, as the AWD system was secretly applying braking to one or another wheel to control the torque split. I have no idea if this is the cas1"
This still does not justify the rotors premature failure.
Nevertheless most say dealer charged me 1k -2k for rotors/pads but they failed to give as the itemized bill. How many hours labour and the respective rate and also the rotors and pads and their respective rate.
I know that dealer parts department charges a lot for pads and rotors so I believe this is not something new. If you have a Q5 it is very easy to find alternative third party parts OEM quality. Do your research and also get a quote before hand if you decide to visit the dealer. Also get a VCDs diagnostic for further savings. Q5 is a great SUV but remember it is called luxury bcs dealer charges premium prices in addition to being a prestige car. Don't blame the dealer 100%. 50% is also our fault bcs we don't shop around or do not ask for a quote. At this stage you have a great negotiating power, you will get a discount, but not when the JB is done.
Last edited by apoelistas; 09-01-2019 at 11:10 AM.
09-01-2019, 09:47 AM
#38
AudiWorld Super User
joey-
If you have a city, county, or state "Department of Consumer Affairs" try contacting them. If not, depending on how ambitious you feel, you might be able to pursue this in small claims court, which may cost you $25-300 to file, with damages usually capped at $2000-5000. (Depends on where you are.) If you sue AoA and the dealer, they are both required to ne represented by counsel--which means a legal bill for them, win or lose.
Might not be worth your time to pursue but considering the low mileage, and that rotors don't just warp without something else being wrong...could be worth pursuing and asking for damages. Often a company will wait until the lawyer's letter or the court date and then simply offer to pay and not go to court. One of the arguements about "wear and tear" might be that since they are not worn, but rather, they have been damaged by some other failure in the brake system--which IS under warranty--that AoA should replace every part of the brake system which might have caused them to overheat and warp. Perhaps that was from a wheel being changed at some time and improperly torqued. Ford had a major production issue over that some 30-40 years ago, improper lug nut torque is a very well known problem.
Sadly, that's the way the game is played, and you are up against professional players.
As to the rotors rusting? Yeah, I get a squeal on the first stop most mornings. Audi's rotors apparently skin over with rust if you just blink at them.
If you have a city, county, or state "Department of Consumer Affairs" try contacting them. If not, depending on how ambitious you feel, you might be able to pursue this in small claims court, which may cost you $25-300 to file, with damages usually capped at $2000-5000. (Depends on where you are.) If you sue AoA and the dealer, they are both required to ne represented by counsel--which means a legal bill for them, win or lose.
Might not be worth your time to pursue but considering the low mileage, and that rotors don't just warp without something else being wrong...could be worth pursuing and asking for damages. Often a company will wait until the lawyer's letter or the court date and then simply offer to pay and not go to court. One of the arguements about "wear and tear" might be that since they are not worn, but rather, they have been damaged by some other failure in the brake system--which IS under warranty--that AoA should replace every part of the brake system which might have caused them to overheat and warp. Perhaps that was from a wheel being changed at some time and improperly torqued. Ford had a major production issue over that some 30-40 years ago, improper lug nut torque is a very well known problem.
Sadly, that's the way the game is played, and you are up against professional players.
As to the rotors rusting? Yeah, I get a squeal on the first stop most mornings. Audi's rotors apparently skin over with rust if you just blink at them.
09-01-2019, 10:53 AM
#39
AudiWorld Super User
This is a hard case for the joey to win. The warranty specifically states that brakes and rotors are only covered for 12 months or 10K miles, which ever comes first. In court the judge will side with Audi as the warranty wording is very precise.
One can buy a new Audi, immediately park it and not use it for a year, you then have brake problems with stuck pads and rusted rotors after 12 months, Audi is not going to fix them for free.
Also if joey decides to have a non-Audi shop replace his rotors and pads and he does have other brake problems (calipers, etc. ) that would be covered by his remaining coverage under the 4 year/50K mile warranty. Audi could deny warranty repairs as they will state that you used non-approved Audi parts and labor practices which caused the other brake issues. I have recently heard from many local Audi owners that they need to do a lot of fighting to get simple warranty work performed.
This is sort of a trend, I use Nikon photography equipment, the standard lens warranty is 5 years, it was soooo easy in the past to send in the lens during its 5th year for a clean and adjustment under the warranty for free. Now a lot of Nikon owners are complaining that Nikon is stating frequently that the lens and camera bodies had "impact" damage, even though they never did, and denies warranty repairs. It's just global greed.....
One can buy a new Audi, immediately park it and not use it for a year, you then have brake problems with stuck pads and rusted rotors after 12 months, Audi is not going to fix them for free.
Also if joey decides to have a non-Audi shop replace his rotors and pads and he does have other brake problems (calipers, etc. ) that would be covered by his remaining coverage under the 4 year/50K mile warranty. Audi could deny warranty repairs as they will state that you used non-approved Audi parts and labor practices which caused the other brake issues. I have recently heard from many local Audi owners that they need to do a lot of fighting to get simple warranty work performed.
This is sort of a trend, I use Nikon photography equipment, the standard lens warranty is 5 years, it was soooo easy in the past to send in the lens during its 5th year for a clean and adjustment under the warranty for free. Now a lot of Nikon owners are complaining that Nikon is stating frequently that the lens and camera bodies had "impact" damage, even though they never did, and denies warranty repairs. It's just global greed.....
09-01-2019, 12:44 PM
#40
AudiWorld Super User
Yeah,that's lots of room for argument. But rotors don't just warp unless there's a manufacturing defect (hello NHTSA) or something else grossly wrong like lug nut torque. And meanwhile, AoA in small claims court has to pay their attorney and expert witnesses by the hour to show that every thing that could have caused the warping as a consequential damage, couldn't possibly have happened.
Now I do know a guy who complained bitterly that his new Riviera (late 70's) was wearing out brakes in 7,000 miles. Shop couldn't find anything wrong, replaced them once. Second time around, we saw him pull away with his brake lights on--he was driving with his left foot on the brake all te time. And swearing he didn't do that.
Still, I'd be delighted to hear from an engineer how brake rotor warping could be routine wear and tear. AFAIK, it just ain't possible.
Now I do know a guy who complained bitterly that his new Riviera (late 70's) was wearing out brakes in 7,000 miles. Shop couldn't find anything wrong, replaced them once. Second time around, we saw him pull away with his brake lights on--he was driving with his left foot on the brake all te time. And swearing he didn't do that.
Still, I'd be delighted to hear from an engineer how brake rotor warping could be routine wear and tear. AFAIK, it just ain't possible.