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Use your VCDS and go to the 19-CAN Gateway module, then using Measuring Blocks button, go to Group 022.
This is from my Q5 battery tonight, that Total Energy Throughput number is how much Ah over time have been extracted from the battery since new. The battery has a lifetime limit (reducing available capacity).
According to an Audi Training course, the max battery Total Energy Throughput Ah life is determined by multiplying the rated battery Ah X 50.
Thus for me it's 75 Ah x 50 = 3750 Ah. I have consumed 2250 Ah of that 3750 Ah with my 5 year old battery. that means I theoretically have 40% battery life left.
With your new battery that Group 022 Total Energy Throughput should be an extremely low number. What is it?
You'll like my battery voltage , this is after my normal five trips per week to the post office that is a 1000 ft round trip with 2 start/stop cycles each trip.
11.7 volts, engine off, pulling 16 A load. The Q5 starts fine, sits outside all winter in PA, mostly just the same daily trip to the post office, and usually one weekly 10-20 mile run,and will still most likely last a few more years.
This battery's internal resistance is still very low for a 5 year old battery and probably why it is surviving.
Last edited by Bob Petruska; 04-06-2018 at 07:37 PM.
Wow. And Ouch. Like Murray, my head is throbbing. TMI! (G)
Let me try to work through this bit by bit.
"There is no way that my state of the art CTEK charger knows..."
Correct. I also have a CTEK charger in the closet, maintaining a stand-by battery. They're supposed to be great, or vastly overhyped, depending on who you ask. But I bought it as being arguably good and certainly better than the "Battery Tender" junk that just boils 'em off. It is a state of the art CONSUMER grade product though. If I take a ten year old Blue Sky (solar MPPT) charge controller and compare the two...the CTEK ain't so smart. It apparently is well made, well calibrated, and has the anti-sulphation feature that might do some good, but it is also designed to take a week before it goes into full float mode. Very different from a car system, or other system designed to maximum charge in the least time. And I would guess that difference in design goals is why it can be a very smart controller--but still not be using the data that commercial systems require. Look at any of the high end marine systems, all designed to pump maximum power in minimum time, while preserving the batteries' overall life, and they all require programming for capacity.
"Per my CTEC manual, all charging stages are triggered by "voltage" measurements and not current"
1-That's the old fashioned way to do it, and even then "current" must be set to match the battery chemistry. AGM and wet lead and gel each being different, electrolyte values being different in hot/cold markets, and the alloy type used in the battery (pure lead, antimony content, recycled lead purity, etc.) all actually require specific voltage matching--not just using generic voltages. Case in point, I can buy a "simple" wet lead battery that measures 12.6V when fully charged. And another one that measures 12.8V. Now tell me, since that 0.2 volts represents a 20% difference in SOC, how can an unprogrammed charger decide what is the proper voltage to switch over from bulk to float? It can't. It will either waste 20% of one battery, or slowly boil out the other. So, maybe you set the voltage change at 12.7, compromising on a 10% "damage" most of the time. Or 12.65, where a lot of mass market batteries may be. And the mass (but not all) of your customers find that's just great.
CTEK is using a good, reasonably conservative, "one size fits all" for longer term maintenance charging. It is a great snow shovel--but still comes up measuring short against a snow plow. Or, better than a snow plow, if you need to dig out the fire hydrant without demolishing it. Horses for courses.
"The Audi BMS system is very complex and measures a lot of things and keeps a readings history.........."
Yes! (And this comes from Ross Tech someplace? I don't know all the docs yet.)
It bears all the hallmarks of a commercial grade system. To abuse a quote, "When you see stripes, think zebras not horses."
But those docs also refer to the battery being under the left rear seat. Is this the same system that we have?
In some ways it seems crude, or outdated, i.e. saying that a battery below 12.2v cannot be "regenerated". Nonsense. A lead battery that is 40% down can be used for quite some time further. It cannot be brought up to a higher voltage or made new again--but it is considered functionally dead at ~11.6 volts and still quite capable of working at 50% capacity, if it had adequate capacity to start with. (Not my opinion, but my experience and instruction from industry sources.) "The following batteries are used: ● 80 Ah / 380 A ● 95 Ah / 450 A ● 110 Ah / 520 A "
Oh? Where did they come up with 95Ah when the Varta battery is 92Ah overseas? I've only seen a reference to 95Ah for Landrover.
Not that the difference is critical, it just suggests different and perhaps contradictory data streams.
"According to an Audi Training course," No fair, you've got the good toys.(G)
"Total Energy Throughput Ah life is determined by multiplying the rated battery Ah X 50."
A convenient fiction, TET. In fact the total energy throughput, the lifetime amapacity of the battery, is determined by a number of things. Mainly the chemistry, the battery type, the plate construction. If you take a premium SLI battery, and cycle it between 90-100% SOC, the way it is intended, that battery may provide 2000 charge cycles. (Random ballpark number.) On the other hand, if you cycle it down to a 5% SOC by leaving the dome light on...you can do that as little as 4 times and wind up with a permanently dead battery. With a deep cycle battery, that "4 times" might increase of 100 times. Might be 5000 times at 90% and 2000 times at 50%. And you can't tell 'em apart without tearing the battery open, diagnostics or not.
So the Audi fiction of TET is a convenient and useful fiction, I will give it that.
"With your new battery that Group 022 Total Energy Throughput should be an extremely low number. What is it?"
Can't say, haven't programmed it yet, since I was trying to get a good BEM code for that.
Looks like either I use the 95Ah Landrover VARTA AGM code 595901085E962
or Volkswagen 000915105CE for a 92Ah AGM.
I did log some data after the new battery was in, the system thinks the new battery is at 70, or 79, or 90% capacity depending on how it is being derived, three fields. (Didn't grab screen shots, and the logs would make tedious reading? I will try to do better.)
The internal resistance is also a less than perfect indicator. I know, I have a nice digital CCA meter that also uses it to computer battery health.
I logged a group 20 field 0 "actual" internal resistance of 2.8 mohm and field 1"standard" internal resistance of 3.6mohm, fwiw. Also showing a battery capacity of 37%, oddly. I think the system is still (expectedly) confused, and the new battery not yet had a chance to fully charge, either.
I'm leaning toward the Landrover 95A numbers...and yes, will try to learn better to grab screen shots and make proper use of the VCDS. The learning curve, a famous Turkish curved sword, isn't that?
Wow. And Ouch. Like Murray, my head is throbbing. TMI! (G)
Let me try to work through this bit by bit.
"There is no way that my state of the art CTEK charger knows..."
Correct. I also have a CTEK charger in the closet, maintaining a stand-by battery. They're supposed to be great, or vastly overhyped, depending on who you ask. But I bought it as being arguably good and certainly better than the "Battery Tender" junk that just boils 'em off. It is a state of the art CONSUMER grade product though. If I take a ten year old Blue Sky (solar MPPT) charge controller and compare the two...the CTEK ain't so smart. It apparently is well made, well calibrated, and has the anti-sulphation feature that might do some good, but it is also designed to take a week before it goes into full float mode. Very different from a car system, or other system designed to maximum charge in the least time. And I would guess that difference in design goals is why it can be a very smart controller--but still not be using the data that commercial systems require. Look at any of the high end marine systems, all designed to pump maximum power in minimum time, while preserving the batteries' overall life, and they all require programming for capacity.
"Per my CTEC manual, all charging stages are triggered by "voltage" measurements and not current"
1-That's the old fashioned way to do it, and even then "current" must be set to match the battery chemistry. AGM and wet lead and gel each being different, electrolyte values being different in hot/cold markets, and the alloy type used in the battery (pure lead, antimony content, recycled lead purity, etc.) all actually require specific voltage matching--not just using generic voltages. Case in point, I can buy a "simple" wet lead battery that measures 12.6V when fully charged. And another one that measures 12.8V. Now tell me, since that 0.2 volts represents a 20% difference in SOC, how can an unprogrammed charger decide what is the proper voltage to switch over from bulk to float? It can't. It will either waste 20% of one battery, or slowly boil out the other. So, maybe you set the voltage change at 12.7, compromising on a 10% "damage" most of the time. Or 12.65, where a lot of mass market batteries may be. And the mass (but not all) of your customers find that's just great.
CTEK is using a good, reasonably conservative, "one size fits all" for longer term maintenance charging. It is a great snow shovel--but still comes up measuring short against a snow plow. Or, better than a snow plow, if you need to dig out the fire hydrant without demolishing it. Horses for courses.
"The Audi BMS system is very complex and measures a lot of things and keeps a readings history.........."
Yes! (And this comes from Ross Tech someplace? I don't know all the docs yet.)
It bears all the hallmarks of a commercial grade system. To abuse a quote, "When you see stripes, think zebras not horses."
But those docs also refer to the battery being under the left rear seat. Is this the same system that we have?
In some ways it seems crude, or outdated, i.e. saying that a battery below 12.2v cannot be "regenerated". Nonsense. A lead battery that is 40% down can be used for quite some time further. It cannot be brought up to a higher voltage or made new again--but it is considered functionally dead at ~11.6 volts and still quite capable of working at 50% capacity, if it had adequate capacity to start with. (Not my opinion, but my experience and instruction from industry sources.) "The following batteries are used: ● 80 Ah / 380 A ● 95 Ah / 450 A ● 110 Ah / 520 A "
Oh? Where did they come up with 95Ah when the Varta battery is 92Ah overseas? I've only seen a reference to 95Ah for Landrover.
Not that the difference is critical, it just suggests different and perhaps contradictory data streams.
"According to an Audi Training course," No fair, you've got the good toys.(G)
"Total Energy Throughput Ah life is determined by multiplying the rated battery Ah X 50."
A convenient fiction, TET. In fact the total energy throughput, the lifetime amapacity of the battery, is determined by a number of things. Mainly the chemistry, the battery type, the plate construction. If you take a premium SLI battery, and cycle it between 90-100% SOC, the way it is intended, that battery may provide 2000 charge cycles. (Random ballpark number.) On the other hand, if you cycle it down to a 5% SOC by leaving the dome light on...you can do that as little as 4 times and wind up with a permanently dead battery. With a deep cycle battery, that "4 times" might increase of 100 times. Might be 5000 times at 90% and 2000 times at 50%. And you can't tell 'em apart without tearing the battery open, diagnostics or not.
So the Audi fiction of TET is a convenient and useful fiction, I will give it that.
"With your new battery that Group 022 Total Energy Throughput should be an extremely low number. What is it?"
Can't say, haven't programmed it yet, since I was trying to get a good BEM code for that.
Looks like either I use the 95Ah Landrover VARTA AGM code 595901085E962
or Volkswagen 000915105CE for a 92Ah AGM.
I did log some data after the new battery was in, the system thinks the new battery is at 70, or 79, or 90% capacity depending on how it is being derived, three fields. (Didn't grab screen shots, and the logs would make tedious reading? I will try to do better.)
The internal resistance is also a less than perfect indicator. I know, I have a nice digital CCA meter that also uses it to computer battery health.
I logged a group 20 field 0 "actual" internal resistance of 2.8 mohm and field 1"standard" internal resistance of 3.6mohm, fwiw. Also showing a battery capacity of 37%, oddly. I think the system is still (expectedly) confused, and the new battery not yet had a chance to fully charge, either.
I'm leaning toward the Landrover 95A numbers...and yes, will try to learn better to grab screen shots and make proper use of the VCDS. The learning curve, a famous Turkish curved sword, isn't that?
1. All that technical BMS stuff above comes from an official Audi technical training course for the Q7 (under seat battery) so it would sort of say that they may know what they are talking about. That Energy Throughput "50" factory is their best guess at the time base on history.
You can look at your Measuring Block Group 022 right now, even though you haven't the correct BEM code as it should be close to a very low reading, that number should not change even if the BEM code has intelligence.
2. I have yet to see a battery charger that charges based upon measuring current. Please point me to one by Brand and Model for me to look at?
I think that we are going over the edge with all this. Right now no one has told us if the BEM code has any intelligence programmed into the BMS, looks like it just tells the BMS that a new battery has been installed, and start recording new BMS data histories.
For anyone else reading this post and is going to replace their battery, the smartest and easiest thing to do is buy a battery by equivalent type (AGM or FB), same capacity Ah, and just change the last digit in the BEM code listed in a VCDS. This will ensure that the BMS charges and works properly as it did before.
"1. All that technical BMS stuff ...best guess..."
I'd agree with the value of the source (although you have to bear in mind their intended audience has no other options for equipment to use) and that "best guess" certainly beats throwing darts.
"
You can look at your Measuring Block Group 022 right now, "
Well....I just took the laptop and all the suggested routines (from Ross Tech, from you, etc.) and took a batch of measurements and screen shoots.
Now, according to pretty much everyone my VCDS software should recognize the car as UDS, not just CAN. Or did I misread Ross?
Because the software says CAN, not UDS. And if I rescan with the chassis type set manually to "8R" (which is what they are, even if the VCDS onscreen help says to use the 7/8 (?) positions of the VIN, which read "FP" in mine...I actually get to see the commonly mentioned "Adaptions 10" block for an instant before that morphes into "Long Adaptions 0A" which is what the screen shots here will show.
"2. I have yet to see a battery charger that charges based upon measuring current. Please point me to one by Brand and Model for me to look at?" The one I'm thinking of is not a conventional charger but the Blue Sky 2000 series, an MPPT solar charger. Try http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/uplo...SE_SB2000.pdf% (and that last % may be wrong) to see their manual. What the manual may not explain, is that their charging algorithm applies maximum current while tapering up the voltage, following about .4v over the voltage the battery is at, and choosing to pump in amps rather than volts. That's partly because that's the reason for MPPT controllers, partly because "more volts" simply does not charge a battery faster. Within certain limits, it is the amps that count. Someone at BS explained that to me and while I was trying to conform it, I reached an engineer at a Big Three battery company (everyone else was out to lunch, lucky timing!) who echoed the same concepts. There's some esoteric stuff they really don't want to bother the general public with. Such as, using DC charging for batteries is WRONG. It turns out that using straight DC creates more microbubbles on the plates, which raise the internal resistance during charging, which slows the charging process, and adds to boiling off electrolyte. They've found (over a decade ago) that using PWM, pulsed DC, actually can charge a battery 10-15% faster while causing less bubbling and boiling. Does that matter to a factory auto technician? No, because they have no options to change what came in the car.
"I think that we are going over the edge with all this. "
Quite possibly. it may be a snark hunt. The system may base everything on internal resistance and the rest may just be there because Germans like precise paperwork.
Meanwhile, some screen shots:
Protocol reads CAN. Should it be UDS for a 2014 Q5 2.0 ??
I think you can see from the above, the system did not like other battery codes, so I wound up simply incrementing the serial number by one.
That's the only change I have posted here.
Measuring blocks as you suggested, and their values with the new code having been entered.
And you may ask, why did I measure coolant temperature? I'll put that in another thread, but THAT bogus message had started my whole battery concern. As soon as I was recoded today, it popped up again. And a system rescan showed no fault codes, the coolant gauge shows normal...I'll ask that separately.
Modified Chasis type to 8R. The sound system malfunction is always there, I think it doesn't like the radio playing from a flash drive while the diagnostic is being run.
See the "Long Adaptation - 0A" ? It was the "Adaptation 10" that is shown in all the UDS instructions...and actually DOES show that way for about one second, before morphing into this.
Oh, one other data point: The battery measured 12.63V after taking off the float charge (couple of minutes of radio) after shutdown. So. the simple real-world measurement is that it is *almost* charged. I'll put a couple of highway hours on it this week, and see what it comes to after that.
So other than "Break out the whiskey and forget about the battery" any comments?
1. That should be UDS protocol, but I need to go to my Q5 and hook up to see what my VCDS states.
2. Total Energy Throughput is zero, so you know that everything was reset properly and that indicates that id didn't remember the old battery history.
3. What is strange is that in Group 020, the Battery Capacity (actual) is 100 Ah. This number is closer to your 95 Ah new battery rating than the old battery 75 Ah rating. Plus you coded the BEM for a 75 Ah battery. So the question is how does it determine what an actual battery's capacity is? I would really like to know the answer to that, I will have a sleepless night thinking about that. The only way would be to totally discharge the battery and measure the total current put back in over a set time during charging, which you obviously didn't do.
4. The Radio error is normal.
Last edited by Bob Petruska; 04-08-2018 at 03:47 PM.
" That should be UDS protocol, but I need to go to my Q5 and hook up to see what my VCDS states."
I would be most curious. Uwe over at (am I allowed to mention such places) said it is no concern, that CAN/UDS just sometimes does not display properly. Since they are shown as using different screens, different input choices...that doesn't seem right.
"2. Total Energy Throughput is zero, so you know that everything was reset properly and that indicates that id didn't remember the old battery history."
Oh, you optimists. A pessimist would only say "You know that the memory was wiped out." (G)
"3. What is strange is that in Group 020, the Battery Capacity (actual) is 100 Ah."
So, this is a mass hallucination? You see it too? It makes me wonder if that is being *calculated* from the internal resistance and the charge acceptance rates perhaps. I sure as hell tried to put in real 95 Ah numbers, the Doktor rejected them.
"Plus you coded the BEM for a 75 Ah battery." It wasn't willing to take changes.
I am looking at photos that clearly show
LANDROVER 95Ah (AGM) Varta MPN 595901085D852 (first 10 should be the BEM)
OEM 0092S5A130, 595901085D852
and
VARTA SILVER DYNAMIC AGM 595-901-085
again 95AH and same model number, with more model and part numbers to confirm it,
So i theory the BEM 595,901,085,D would be the valid 10-digit BEM, or ,D8 would be 11 digits.
In both cases, the car refused to accept them--and they are valid VW VARTA codes Didn't matter if I used JCB or VAO as the mfr name.
A matching serial number for those batteries didn't help either, which is why I stuck to changing NOTHING except the last digit of the serial number.
" So the question is how does it determine what an actual battery's capacity is? I would really like to know the answer to that, I will have a sleepless night thinking about that." The only way would be to totally discharge the battery and measure the total current put back in over a set time during charging, which you obviously didn't do."
Yeah, and since an SLI battery typically becomes a paperweight after 2-4 full cycles (according to JCI themselves) I'm not about to run a real 20-hour test on my battery, either.
Could it be we have been gaslighted by that engineer who is STILL pissed off about losing the war?
" That should be UDS protocol, but I need to go to my Q5 and hook up to see what my VCDS states."
I would be most curious. Uwe over at (am I allowed to mention such places) said it is no concern, that CAN/UDS just sometimes does not display properly. Since they are shown as using different screens, different input choices...that doesn't seem right.
"2. Total Energy Throughput is zero, so you know that everything was reset properly and that indicates that id didn't remember the old battery history."
Oh, you optimists. A pessimist would only say "You know that the memory was wiped out." (G)
"3. What is strange is that in Group 020, the Battery Capacity (actual) is 100 Ah."
So, this is a mass hallucination? You see it too? It makes me wonder if that is being *calculated* from the internal resistance and the charge acceptance rates perhaps. I sure as hell tried to put in real 95 Ah numbers, the Doktor rejected them.
"Plus you coded the BEM for a 75 Ah battery." It wasn't willing to take changes.
I am looking at photos that clearly show
LANDROVER 95Ah (AGM) Varta MPN 595901085D852 (first 10 should be the BEM)
OEM 0092S5A130, 595901085D852
and
VARTA SILVER DYNAMIC AGM 595-901-085
again 95AH and same model number, with more model and part numbers to confirm it,
So i theory the BEM 595,901,085,D would be the valid 10-digit BEM, or ,D8 would be 11 digits.
In both cases, the car refused to accept them--and they are valid VW VARTA codes Didn't matter if I used JCB or VAO as the mfr name.
A matching serial number for those batteries didn't help either, which is why I stuck to changing NOTHING except the last digit of the serial number.
" So the question is how does it determine what an actual battery's capacity is? I would really like to know the answer to that, I will have a sleepless night thinking about that." The only way would be to totally discharge the battery and measure the total current put back in over a set time during charging, which you obviously didn't do."
Yeah, and since an SLI battery typically becomes a paperweight after 2-4 full cycles (according to JCI themselves) I'm not about to run a real 20-hour test on my battery, either.
Could it be we have been gaslighted by that engineer who is STILL pissed off about losing the war?
Yes, UDS may just show up in the screen corner depending upon what section of VCDS you are in. Lately I mostly use VCDS to perform throttle body adaptation and I know that I see UDS on that screen as every protocol has different adaptation procedures.
This BEM code is bogus. If it meant anything every Auto Zone, Advanced Auto, Pep Boys, Sears, etc.. battery would have a BEM sticker on them. I vote that the BEM code has no intelligence, and means nothing to the BMS, but I could be wrong!
If I where you I would just button it all up and use the Q5. Then down the road in a few months compare your initial screen shots and see how things look.
Oh, the 50 X Battery Capacity = Max Total Energy Throughput limit caculation, is used to trigger the Replace Battery Now warning that some owners have seen. Is it accurate, no, but good enough to give you a warning that you should think about getting a new battery soon.
I did a lot of hunting tonight for the BEM decoder. Nothing official out there, but many are saying that the BEM code is just the manufacturer, assembly date code, and serial number. Nothing else, no data input to the BMS regarding capacity, type, internal resistance, etc..
I'm tempted to agree with you. Like the "Audi approved oil" list, or the TopTier Gasoline association logo, I think battery makers have to have a comercial transaction with VW in order to get on the approved list (and I'd bet a prime supplier like Varta may have some exclusive status) so getting a BEM code may not be worthwhile, if possible, for the other players.
I'll keep peeking at it, but the car is probably roadworthy as is.
If I want to explore the second battery, factory style...what do you think? There would be a sub-harness to plug in, and possibly a second monitor? Any easy way to pull up what the EU parts needed for that are? That's a back-burner pursuit, not going to tear up that panel this week.(G)
I'm tempted to agree with you. Like the "Audi approved oil" list, or the TopTier Gasoline association logo, I think battery makers have to have a comercial transaction with VW in order to get on the approved list (and I'd bet a prime supplier like Varta may have some exclusive status) so getting a BEM code may not be worthwhile, if possible, for the other players.
I'll keep peeking at it, but the car is probably roadworthy as is.
If I want to explore the second battery, factory style...what do you think? There would be a sub-harness to plug in, and possibly a second monitor? Any easy way to pull up what the EU parts needed for that are? That's a back-burner pursuit, not going to tear up that panel this week.(G)
If any option didn't come from the Audi factory, then usually there aren't the connectors, fuses (socket pins), CAN-BUS jumpers, coding to do so.
Why do you need dual batteries? Obviously my battery is totally abused, "never" fully charged at all. Sometimes it sits for days in the winter at 0-10 degrees F, and then starts without a struggle. You now have an extra Ah capacity and CCA, so you should have no issues.
04-06-2018, 07:21 PM
