Potential Lemon Law action on 2019 Q5
12-10-2019, 11:17 AM
#1
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Potential Lemon Law action on 2019 Q5
I'm currently in discussions with AoA and Audi Seattle about getting them to buy back my 2019 Audi Q5 Prem+. Here's the sequence of events:
July 27: Vehicle purchased new from Audi Seattle for ~$2K below MSRP. It wasn't a phenomenal deal, but I was happy with the price. Upon taking delivery the A/C didn’t work, so I went home with a service loaner that first day. Audi Seattle recharged the A/C system and I took delivery of my Q5 two days later. Of course, simply recharging the system did not address the root cause.
August 29: Departing for a roadtrip to Jasper and Banff national parks in Canada (which I posted about here on AW), the A/C doesn't work. I stopped by Audi Seattle with my car packed on my way out of town, but because I was leaving the country they could not give me a loaner. So I drove 2,000 miles through BC and Alberta on the "trip of a lifetime" without A/C and with the windows down. It might sound fun, but it's really noisy and annoying after a while, and you don't get to enjoy that amazing B&O stereo.
September 11: Q5 goes in for A/C repair. Leaking hose identified and replaced -- Audi Seattle probably should have done this the first time.
November 13: Since the repair, the A/C unit emitted a high-pitched whining noise when the compressor was running. So I brought it in for for service again. Issue identified as the evaporator, but service was not performed until parts could be ordered. They did the rear-wheel arch trim recall at this time.
November 20: Audi Seattle replaced the noisy evaporator, and kept the vehicle for 12 days, returning it December 3. This was a *very* invasive repair requiring them to replace the windshield and remove the dashboard. I got reams of paperwork from this one. But the car looked great when they returned it and there were no new squeaks or rattles.
December 8: I drive from downtown over to West Seattle and back. With the A/C on and temperature set to “Lo” it blows *very* hot air. I had a friend (and fellow Audi owner) in the car who agreed this was nuts. So Sunday afternoon I take the Q5 -- loaded up with the roof rack cross bars, extra floor mats, all the paperwork, and both keys -- back to Audi Seattle and ask them to buy it back.
In 4.5 months of ownership and just 3,050 miles, the A/C worked only very briefly after that first recharge. And the Q5 has been in the shop repeatedly!
I talked with the most senior sales person working on a Sunday and it was all very polite. I was clear that "I'm done with this car." On Monday I talked with Audi of America and they opened a case. Everyone at Audi Seattle and at AoA have been incredibly polite and professional throughout. AoA asked that Audi Seattle be given a chance to diagnose the issue which is fine by me. So now I'm waiting to hear back on next steps... I have not contacted a lawyer, though I have identified one based on AW discussions.
I'm a first-time Audi buyer after 3 BMWs in a row since 2006. But my parents and sister have owned a dozen Audis including the original V8 Quattro, an Allroad 4.2, A8, TT cabriolet, multiple A4s (wagon, sedans, and cabrio), and a 2018 Q5 I convinced my sister to buy -- which has been flawless.
So, here's how I see this playing out:
-James
Seattle, WA
2019 Audi Q5 Prem+ (warm weather pkg, b&o, black optics)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive35i (loaded)
2006 BMW X3 3.0i (manual, loaded except for nav)
2006 BMW 330Ci convertible (manual, loaded except for nav)
1998 Audi A4 2.8QTip (parental hand me down)
July 27: Vehicle purchased new from Audi Seattle for ~$2K below MSRP. It wasn't a phenomenal deal, but I was happy with the price. Upon taking delivery the A/C didn’t work, so I went home with a service loaner that first day. Audi Seattle recharged the A/C system and I took delivery of my Q5 two days later. Of course, simply recharging the system did not address the root cause.
August 29: Departing for a roadtrip to Jasper and Banff national parks in Canada (which I posted about here on AW), the A/C doesn't work. I stopped by Audi Seattle with my car packed on my way out of town, but because I was leaving the country they could not give me a loaner. So I drove 2,000 miles through BC and Alberta on the "trip of a lifetime" without A/C and with the windows down. It might sound fun, but it's really noisy and annoying after a while, and you don't get to enjoy that amazing B&O stereo.
September 11: Q5 goes in for A/C repair. Leaking hose identified and replaced -- Audi Seattle probably should have done this the first time.
November 13: Since the repair, the A/C unit emitted a high-pitched whining noise when the compressor was running. So I brought it in for for service again. Issue identified as the evaporator, but service was not performed until parts could be ordered. They did the rear-wheel arch trim recall at this time.
November 20: Audi Seattle replaced the noisy evaporator, and kept the vehicle for 12 days, returning it December 3. This was a *very* invasive repair requiring them to replace the windshield and remove the dashboard. I got reams of paperwork from this one. But the car looked great when they returned it and there were no new squeaks or rattles.
December 8: I drive from downtown over to West Seattle and back. With the A/C on and temperature set to “Lo” it blows *very* hot air. I had a friend (and fellow Audi owner) in the car who agreed this was nuts. So Sunday afternoon I take the Q5 -- loaded up with the roof rack cross bars, extra floor mats, all the paperwork, and both keys -- back to Audi Seattle and ask them to buy it back.
In 4.5 months of ownership and just 3,050 miles, the A/C worked only very briefly after that first recharge. And the Q5 has been in the shop repeatedly!
I talked with the most senior sales person working on a Sunday and it was all very polite. I was clear that "I'm done with this car." On Monday I talked with Audi of America and they opened a case. Everyone at Audi Seattle and at AoA have been incredibly polite and professional throughout. AoA asked that Audi Seattle be given a chance to diagnose the issue which is fine by me. So now I'm waiting to hear back on next steps... I have not contacted a lawyer, though I have identified one based on AW discussions.
I'm a first-time Audi buyer after 3 BMWs in a row since 2006. But my parents and sister have owned a dozen Audis including the original V8 Quattro, an Allroad 4.2, A8, TT cabriolet, multiple A4s (wagon, sedans, and cabrio), and a 2018 Q5 I convinced my sister to buy -- which has been flawless.
So, here's how I see this playing out:
- If Audi buys back the Q5, then great. I'll go buy a 2020 Macan and be done with it. This will be a more profitable transaction for the Volkswagen Group and it gets me the size/engine/drivetrain I wanted when I bought the Q5. Otherwise the Q3 is too small and Q7/Q8 are way too big. Besides, I love the DCT of the Macan/Q5 and the others don't offer that.
- If Audi insists they're allowed four repair attempts before they buy back the car, then it gets more interesting. I still have 25 months left under WA State Lemon Laws. If *anything* goes wrong in that time with the A/C or as a result of the repair efforts (e.g. a leaking windshield), then I'm not calling Audi Seattle service, I'm calling a lawyer. Given the track record of the first 4.5 months, I can't see how I'll go the next 2.5 years without issues.
- Even if the Q5 is flawless for the next 25 months, I won't own this thing out of warranty. But then I'm screwed on resale. Anyone who pulls the service records is going to say "no thanks" given the repeated and highly invasive repair efforts documented. So this would be a very costly outcome for me. I'll work with a lawyer before it comes to this. A $1,500 investment in a lawyer is worth trying to avoid a $10K-$15K hit on resale due to these issues.
-James
Seattle, WA
2019 Audi Q5 Prem+ (warm weather pkg, b&o, black optics)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive35i (loaded)
2006 BMW X3 3.0i (manual, loaded except for nav)
2006 BMW 330Ci convertible (manual, loaded except for nav)
1998 Audi A4 2.8QTip (parental hand me down)
12-10-2019, 03:34 PM
#3
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Based on a prior discussion thread, $1,200 or so.
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-...2979152/page2/
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-...2979152/page2/
12-10-2019, 06:56 PM
#4
AudiWorld Member
Based on a prior discussion thread, $1,200 or so.
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-...2979152/page2/
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-...2979152/page2/
12-10-2019, 07:31 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
You need to let Audi fix the car. This repair history affects the resale value of the car zero in the future...a non-issue. If you tell them you are going to go buy a Porsche you look to be brand-jumping, trying to actively find a way out of a car that it *appears* you do not like and have buyers remorse. True or not, it will appear this way. *IF* Audi was to buy back the car they would be likely looking to put you in another Audi, not just give yo money back and see you walk away. Also, since your repairs have not been for the same issue (despite being a part of the same system of the car) it would be VERY tough to make a lemon-law case for this. You have had different parts fail, and there have been (up to this point) different parts replaced to address different issues, so be sure to do some research on exactly what qualifies for lemon-law in your state.
I've worked for a number of dealerships as the point-of-contact for potential lemon-law buy back cases, working directly with the customer. I'd strongly advise you to be polite, patient, and give AoA and the dealer the benefit of the doubt on a resolution to this issue. Clearly they understand your concern, share the same view as the A/C should work on a new car, and have multiple resources now working to resolve the issue. Sometimes things break, and it sucks, and there is little the dealership or you can do about it other than address the issues as they arise. This could have just as easily happened on a new Porsche Macan (and likely, because they are gobs of the same A/C components). Sounds like the seriousness of your displeasure is reasonable and now made aware to AoA, so it's time to let them do their job to rectify the situation. If in the future things continue to go awry, THEN you have a more solid case for a dramatic resolution (like a different car).
I've worked for a number of dealerships as the point-of-contact for potential lemon-law buy back cases, working directly with the customer. I'd strongly advise you to be polite, patient, and give AoA and the dealer the benefit of the doubt on a resolution to this issue. Clearly they understand your concern, share the same view as the A/C should work on a new car, and have multiple resources now working to resolve the issue. Sometimes things break, and it sucks, and there is little the dealership or you can do about it other than address the issues as they arise. This could have just as easily happened on a new Porsche Macan (and likely, because they are gobs of the same A/C components). Sounds like the seriousness of your displeasure is reasonable and now made aware to AoA, so it's time to let them do their job to rectify the situation. If in the future things continue to go awry, THEN you have a more solid case for a dramatic resolution (like a different car).
12-11-2019, 06:11 AM
#6
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Great feedback, farmerjones. And this is why I post on AudiWorld and read the responses!
I agree on being patient and letting Audi Seattle and AoA come back to me with a solution/suggestion. The right people are engaged, and everyone has been professional and diligent thus far. At some point, my patience runs out, however. I did the math just now, and out of the first 137 days of ownership, the car has been in service 24 days over five service visits. That's ~17% of the time I've owned the car. And on the recent two visits, I have not had a loaner car, though that has been my choice, because I'm eager to get this resolved and didn't want to wait several weeks until a loaner was available. The A/C worked properly only very briefly in the entire time I've owned the vehicle, and at $55K that's really frustrating.
To your point about service history not impacting the value of the car, I'm not sure I agree. If I were buying a car, and I pulled a very long, complex service history, I would seriously consider looking at another vehicle. The Q5 is Audi's #1 selling model in North America, so there are a ton of them out there.
Your point about "brand hopping" is insightful. Overall I've been happy with the Q5. If you read my post about the Canadian roadtrip (linked above), I gave a thoughtful, unbiased review of the Q5 and on balance I really like it! My family have owned roughly a dozen Audis since the original V8 Quattro in 1990 and had great results. My point about the Macan, is that it's as close as I can get to the Q5 while not being built on the new assembly line that may be still working through some supplier/parts issues. I would very much like to stay in the Volkswagen-Audi Group family, and have no intention of going back to BMW at this point in time.
So I wait a bit... Audi Seattle is still working to diagnose the problem, so we'll see what they find. If we can work a deal to get into another Q5, that's a possibility. There are plenty of them out there that have been trouble free. I just know that if stuff goes wrong in a second one, I'm going to have very little patience for it.
-James
Seattle, WA
I agree on being patient and letting Audi Seattle and AoA come back to me with a solution/suggestion. The right people are engaged, and everyone has been professional and diligent thus far. At some point, my patience runs out, however. I did the math just now, and out of the first 137 days of ownership, the car has been in service 24 days over five service visits. That's ~17% of the time I've owned the car. And on the recent two visits, I have not had a loaner car, though that has been my choice, because I'm eager to get this resolved and didn't want to wait several weeks until a loaner was available. The A/C worked properly only very briefly in the entire time I've owned the vehicle, and at $55K that's really frustrating.
To your point about service history not impacting the value of the car, I'm not sure I agree. If I were buying a car, and I pulled a very long, complex service history, I would seriously consider looking at another vehicle. The Q5 is Audi's #1 selling model in North America, so there are a ton of them out there.
Your point about "brand hopping" is insightful. Overall I've been happy with the Q5. If you read my post about the Canadian roadtrip (linked above), I gave a thoughtful, unbiased review of the Q5 and on balance I really like it! My family have owned roughly a dozen Audis since the original V8 Quattro in 1990 and had great results. My point about the Macan, is that it's as close as I can get to the Q5 while not being built on the new assembly line that may be still working through some supplier/parts issues. I would very much like to stay in the Volkswagen-Audi Group family, and have no intention of going back to BMW at this point in time.
So I wait a bit... Audi Seattle is still working to diagnose the problem, so we'll see what they find. If we can work a deal to get into another Q5, that's a possibility. There are plenty of them out there that have been trouble free. I just know that if stuff goes wrong in a second one, I'm going to have very little patience for it.
-James
Seattle, WA
12-11-2019, 07:36 AM
#7
AudiWorld Senior Member
Sorry to hear that you're dealing with this. Hopefully, they can figure out why this failure occurred. Once they do, I would also ask if AoA would extend your warranty- at the minimum the time out of service.
And I would certainly request a loaner each and every time your Q5 is out of service. It should be at least another Q5- if not higher model. You paid for a new vehicle- at the very least, you should get some use of some vehicle.
Good luck.
And I would certainly request a loaner each and every time your Q5 is out of service. It should be at least another Q5- if not higher model. You paid for a new vehicle- at the very least, you should get some use of some vehicle.
Good luck.
Last edited by calbear92; 12-12-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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12-12-2019, 08:14 AM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
The Q5 has been back in the shop since Sunday, and they discovered two other A/C-related items: an issue with the condenser and with a thermostat. I was on the phone with AoA this morning. I asked whether AoA would do a "Goodwill Replacement" and the person with whom I was speaking said she needed to get this immediate repair issue resolved and then work with another department (which I interpreted to mean the Lawyers) to see whether this vehicle qualified for replacement or repurchase under WA State lemon laws. So, at what point do I need to hire a lawyer? At what point in the process do I get to plead my case with someone at AoA who can actually make a decision? The process is very opaque. Anyone been through this before?
Thanks!
James
Thanks!
James
12-12-2019, 03:38 PM
#9
AudiWorld Senior Member
You need to read the Lemon Law qualifications and see if your car qualifies. Every state is different. Based off many state rules your car does NOT qualify, because different components have failed (not the same repair over and over). If that's the case, Audi is legally not obliged to do anything but repair the car under warranty.
I would say your first step is to understand if the car even qualifies, and that would then point you in the right direction. In my personally opinion Audi has very little reason to "good will" you a new car over a fairly minor issue (not safety related in any way). Sometimes it's best to just put a bad experience in the review mirror and move on. It's likely you could own the car the rest of the time with zero problems ever. Sometimes you create you own anguish.
Let them fix the car. Drive it for a while. If something else bad happens, THEN you can explore other options. Just let it be fixed and drive and enjoy it is my advice. I've been through this situation MANY times, and I've personally had a car bought back via Lemon Law.
I would say your first step is to understand if the car even qualifies, and that would then point you in the right direction. In my personally opinion Audi has very little reason to "good will" you a new car over a fairly minor issue (not safety related in any way). Sometimes it's best to just put a bad experience in the review mirror and move on. It's likely you could own the car the rest of the time with zero problems ever. Sometimes you create you own anguish.
Let them fix the car. Drive it for a while. If something else bad happens, THEN you can explore other options. Just let it be fixed and drive and enjoy it is my advice. I've been through this situation MANY times, and I've personally had a car bought back via Lemon Law.
12-12-2019, 05:59 PM
#10
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Let them fix the car. Drive it for a while. If something else bad happens, THEN you can explore other options. Just let it be fixed and drive and enjoy it is my advice. I've been through this situation MANY times, and I've personally had a car bought back via Lemon Law.
To your point about the Lemon Law, I'm not a lawyer. I can't make the legal determination of whether the different A/C system parts constitute different repairs or one failure. It's not safety related unless you want to run the defrost to clear a foggy windshield.