RI A6

Dave and Bob seem to want to hammer away and ridicule the work I've done on oil in the RS4 engine, and seem to become offended when I make a statement or answer a question. For some reason, both want to challenge facts, without even a cursory evaluation, and immediately dismiss them as untrue, based on a variously changing criteria.

I talk about what my research has been freely and openly, and you all have been the recipients of around $5K worth of professional consulting and about $20K of my own time involved in research and self-education. I started out about one year ago not knowing a thing about oil, except what I read in the manufacturers literature, and a few scattered postings here and there on the Internet. This forum has been there at every step in my personal learning, and you've come to know my style, which is to base everything on science, and leave no stone unturned. If you don't like that, tough. Some people have enjoyed hearing about what I've learned, as I've happened onto understandings and insights that are generally not published anywhere.

How many of you out there admit when you're wrong? I do, and have at every step in the way. Yet, some ridicule my mistakes, rather than acknowledge them as part of any good learning process. For example, I chose Elf oil, based on a few good comments in internet forums, and good marketing in their literature. Unfortunately I found through oil analysis that the oil did not live up to it's marketing. (BTW, I did not trust just one lab, but sent samples to a second lab for a comparison, just to be sure.)

Then, under the recommendation of Terry Dyson, a highly recognized independent oil tribologist, I was given a choice of oils that might solve the fuel dilution and wear problems that we had been seeing. That list was:

Redline 5W-40
Amsoil Euro 5W-40
Motul 8100 Etech 0W-40
Motul 8100 Xcess 5W-40
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40
Quaker State Q Euro 5W-40

Of those oils, 2 were not on the 502 list, which I did not want to deviate from, and 2 were not readily available. So, I ended up deciding on Motul 8100 Etech 0W-40, which was available, and is a well-known, highly regarded Ester based oil.

As I was running it and taking samples, I talked about it in this forum, and yes, it did do a bit better than Elf. And wear was measurably lower, but ultimately once fuel dilution climbed to about 2% it would begin to crash hard, just like other oils.

Other owners had also taken samples and added them to our data base. It was becoming clear that no 502 oil was going to have a very significant advantage in the face of fuel dilution. At that point, I was fed up with the Audi specs and warranty requirements, so I authorized Terry Dyson to consult for me and research what would be necessary to fight fuel dilution and decrease wear in the RS4 engine. (Before this point, Terry was performing his normal oil analysis and interpretation service.)

For those of you who are not aware, I approached Terry professionally and in the same way I would approach and use any consultant in my business. This was not a consumer-level engagement, but at the professional level, just like his engagements have been for Pennzoil, the US government, numerous racing teams, and other fleet operations and lubricant formulators worldwide. Absolutely nothing was off the table. And for the small consulting fees that I paid him (compared to what I normally consult for myself) he did one hell of a job, using his extensive proprietary knowledge, reviewing the technical literature, speaking with contacts in the automotive, racing, fuel and oil industries, and then setting out to find a formulator who would create our own brew, based on the research and insights.

Terry had previous knowledge of Renewable Lubricants and Bill Garmier their VP, who were willing to work with us on a special formulation. (There was no prior professional relationship between the two, or financial interests. But RLI, was willing to work with us.) Nothing was off the table. And as a result, we were able to specify and have blended the most advanced oil to be targeted specifically for this engine.

Our formulation uses the most advanced and stable additives currently known in the industry, with some base oils that are totally rockin'. The additive chemistry that we use is extremely expensive, as are the HOBS, PAO, and VHVI base oils in the mixture. Through patents that RLI holds, we have access to some remarkable copper/antimony antiwear and antioxident additive chemistry that is unique, and the reason why our wear is so low. And through the HOBS base oil, we get an exceptional viscosity index of 190, and at the same time some pretty incredible cleaning properties, due to the HOBS esters.

I have no ulterior motive than pride in doing something good that is a win-win for all. As they say , take what you like and leave the rest.

So, is this something that you RS4 owners on the forum are interested in continuing to hear, or do you want me to shut the -uck up? I'm done with Bob and Dave.

daveak05

i don't want to hammer away at your oil analysis, and i don't believe Bob does either, so stop distorting this. what i don't like to see is these giant leaps from some fairly typical UOA results to this notion that the RS4 engine is in serious trouble unless your oil is used. WTF!

this is what i challenge: your own spinning of the facts to suit your needs or means to an end, and it's where you really lose it, IMO.

just please provide the info without all the misguided conclusions.

also, i would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or trying to belittle my comments. example: saying that i view oil as just another commodity. bullsh!t! this from the guy who said the first time he ever used a gas additve was within the last year. i know a little about oil, gas, gas additives, and engines. don't make the mistake of viewing yourself as some newborn authority, when in reality you have just managed to get all tangled up in your own incredibly myopic viewpoint...on something as common as oil and gas additves. i mean, give me a break, Scott!

arrghh!

gtc

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I follow along when discussing oil and its only because you write in an articulate and organized fashion that I can enjoy and somewhat understand the read (I'm just not that technical about cars. I've heard people say that guys either know computers or cars very well, but I am sure there are people here who know both very well).

You also always seem to have valuable and hard to get information, like the RS4 product launch pdf and the great write-up of what the S button really does and the torque curves. The RI RS4 break-in method is pretty much the defacto standard.

As a matter of fact, I may dyno my car this weekend and if I go, I am going to do at least one pull with the S button on and one with it off.

I did think that Dave and Bob were just kidding around. And don't you think that an argument between daveak and dxben would be great? Maybe we can rile 'em up.


** ok, maybe dave isn't joking. haha

RI A6

No.

daveak05

i know what you're saying and i agree. i have tried every approach with Scott, but he is so tunnel visioned on this oil question that it becomes hopeless. it is just too much. it needs to be put into perspective...constantly, thanks to Scott.

yes, he provides good information, like you said. the PROBLEM arises when he then draws completely unsupported conclusions. half the time i don't even know where it's coming from, where he gets these strange detached theories.

and then, at some point, he always questions mine or Bob's knowledge, as if that's going to boost his own stmts somehow.

the bottom line is all oils are not equal. but in the last 100 or so years of automobiles, they have never been equal(or identical). does that mean that we all switch to the next looney oil that Scott finds on his travels? heck no!

daveak05

then i suggest ou give up your job and family and travel the world in search of the mystical oil.

ATL

I also appreciate the levity and banter provided generally in the forum by Bob and Dave.

I can draw my own conclusions and make my own decisions from the information you provide, as I suspect most others here can and do also.

Thanks

sparkhill

Thanks for your work on this (and other) issues

daveak05

it is banter. nothing serious. all i'm asking for is some perspective. there are other car mfgrs using direct injection. i'd be interested if they feel the need for any special approach to engine oil. so far, nada.

Bob W.

FWIW, I don't reply to any of these threads regarding oil unless I see something ridiculous, such as todays "10k oil service interval, LOL" comment. My reply to that statement wasn't directed at you, so there was no 'piling on'...you jumped into the pile!

You admit that you knew nothing about oil a year ago, and you've done (despite what you think) a minuscule amount of research on this subject, and this qualifies you to WRITE ABOUT the type of oil that is appropriate to use in my $70k car? And to top it off, you expect me to believe that your one year of experience in this area qualifies you to question the appropriateness of the manufacturers service recommendations? Scott, we've been taking it easy on you. Under the circumstances, I think you should expect people to be VERY critical of anything you post on this subject.