First drive up to snow and mountains...
12-11-2006, 06:12 PM
#1
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fresno
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First drive up to snow and mountains...
Went snowboarding today... and as good as my S4 was in the snow and mountains, the RS4 is so much better. Quattro is phenomonal with poor weather conditions, but the power and suspension of the RS4 kept me smiling all the way. It's so effortless...almost an unfair advantage.
12-11-2006, 06:38 PM
#2
AudiWorld Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ditto that, so what kind of winter set up do you have?
Agreed! My 04 B6 S4 was fast, so much so, when I traded it in they thought it was chipped! ;O (seemed like the 04 B6 are/were faster than the '05 B6's and B7's but the RS4 is a totally different beast (from the ground up), much faster, more responsive, and there is no other car quite like it out there. RS4 gives you an instant and wider smile!
P.S. My 04 S4 already beat my neighbors 335i coupe(+ exhaust mod), but its so much more effortless with my RS4, his expression (and hence my joy)is priceless! ...all he sees now is a Sprint Blue streak!
P.S. My 04 S4 already beat my neighbors 335i coupe(+ exhaust mod), but its so much more effortless with my RS4, his expression (and hence my joy)is priceless! ...all he sees now is a Sprint Blue streak!
12-11-2006, 06:56 PM
#3
New Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did you get any slippy-maybe ?
We had our first fun-to-drive-on snow here in the Rocky Mountains last week and the week before-- the kind where the temperatures get down to under 20F and the snow gets GRIPPY.
I was REALLY looking forward to finding a parking lot and getting to know this car's snow manners. [ESP off button held for 3+ seconds]
A few things surprised me:
1. The Dunlop Wintersport M3 DOES NOT HOLD A CANDLE to the Blizzak WS-50 (unavailable in 18" diameter...for now) in the slippy-maybe. In the dry, the Dunlop provides WAY more support on the pavement, where the WS-50 pretty much squirms, groans, and gives it self up to the Gods of abrasion.
2. The RS4's 60/40 torque split between rear and front axles makes it very easy to kick out the rear end under power, MUCH moreso than the other-model Quattro systems at 50/50.
3. Combine #1 and #2 above, and you have MUCH more responsibility as the driver to maintain control in a power-induced slide/drift.
4. The ESP-off snow manners of this car are much more like a rear wheel drive car than I would have thought. This is a plus in one respect, because it puts the fun of a rear wheel drive system at your disposal, plus you get drive out of the corner from the front wheels where rear-wheel systems just simply languish.
5. So I took the Blizzak WS-50-shod A4 3.2Q out for a spin...
6. The Dunlop Wintersport M3 DOES NOT HOLD A CANDLE TO THE Blizzak WS-50 !!! This car WOULD NOT BUDGE unless you provoked it to a Schumacheresque extreme. Stud-like performance from a non-studded tire.
7. The 50/50 torque split in the A4 made it much more difficult to kick the rear end around, but it would comply with this sort of request if you gave it the authority.
8. The A4 in this configuration would leave the RS4 in the dust, no question about it.
8. Nokian is rumored to be releasing a DOT-approved studdable Hakkapeliitta for 18" wheels in January.
9. We'll just see who leaves who in the dust on the slippy-maybe when those bad boys come in...
Report to follow...
I was REALLY looking forward to finding a parking lot and getting to know this car's snow manners. [ESP off button held for 3+ seconds]
A few things surprised me:
1. The Dunlop Wintersport M3 DOES NOT HOLD A CANDLE to the Blizzak WS-50 (unavailable in 18" diameter...for now) in the slippy-maybe. In the dry, the Dunlop provides WAY more support on the pavement, where the WS-50 pretty much squirms, groans, and gives it self up to the Gods of abrasion.
2. The RS4's 60/40 torque split between rear and front axles makes it very easy to kick out the rear end under power, MUCH moreso than the other-model Quattro systems at 50/50.
3. Combine #1 and #2 above, and you have MUCH more responsibility as the driver to maintain control in a power-induced slide/drift.
4. The ESP-off snow manners of this car are much more like a rear wheel drive car than I would have thought. This is a plus in one respect, because it puts the fun of a rear wheel drive system at your disposal, plus you get drive out of the corner from the front wheels where rear-wheel systems just simply languish.
5. So I took the Blizzak WS-50-shod A4 3.2Q out for a spin...
6. The Dunlop Wintersport M3 DOES NOT HOLD A CANDLE TO THE Blizzak WS-50 !!! This car WOULD NOT BUDGE unless you provoked it to a Schumacheresque extreme. Stud-like performance from a non-studded tire.
7. The 50/50 torque split in the A4 made it much more difficult to kick the rear end around, but it would comply with this sort of request if you gave it the authority.
8. The A4 in this configuration would leave the RS4 in the dust, no question about it.
8. Nokian is rumored to be releasing a DOT-approved studdable Hakkapeliitta for 18" wheels in January.
9. We'll just see who leaves who in the dust on the slippy-maybe when those bad boys come in...
Report to follow...
12-11-2006, 07:15 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
I thought my 19" Dunlops (M3s) were fine in the last snow we got... I drove around Denver a lot
during that last snow (100+ miles) and thought the tires were great. Although many of the miles were on the highway, C-470 (between Wadsworth & I-70) had quite a bit of snow on it but I did have the ESP enabled - didn't need any unnecessary heroics as I had plenty more driving to do over that weekend.
On my 2000 S4 I had two different sets of snow tires: Nokian Hakkapeliittas & Michelin Pilot Alpin 2s. Both worked well...
I think the torque split makes a huge difference in the handling of the car - as expected, but I think that "The A4 in this configuration would leave the RS4 in the dust, no question about it" sounds a little strong, but then I haven't driven on Blizzaks. Sounds like a good snow tire, if not a good dry tire.
On my 2000 S4 I had two different sets of snow tires: Nokian Hakkapeliittas & Michelin Pilot Alpin 2s. Both worked well...
I think the torque split makes a huge difference in the handling of the car - as expected, but I think that "The A4 in this configuration would leave the RS4 in the dust, no question about it" sounds a little strong, but then I haven't driven on Blizzaks. Sounds like a good snow tire, if not a good dry tire.
12-11-2006, 08:35 PM
#6
New Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No hyperbole
I had about a week's worth of playing in the RS4 before jumping into the A4 on the slippy.
No joke: I estimate the A4 with Blizzak WS-50s (not the LM-25, that's more like the Dunlop) was easily 3x more grippy on the cold, hard-packed snow in Sunshine Canyon.
Having just completed a full-on tear in the RS4, jumping into the A4 was like driving on rails.
In a hard-packed, cold-snow canyon, where exposed pavement was utterly unavailable, the RS4's power would not come into play, leaving the tire/snow interface as the only variable.
That day, I would have challenged anyone of any skill level in the RS4 to a jam up the canyon with me in the A4, and there just would have been no contest.
I was able to FLOOR the A4 on WS-50s through corners, where the RS4 on Dunlops would have been plowing on entry and fishtailing on exit.
I got back to the house, opened the door, greeted my Fiance and said only one word:
"WOW !"
No joke: I estimate the A4 with Blizzak WS-50s (not the LM-25, that's more like the Dunlop) was easily 3x more grippy on the cold, hard-packed snow in Sunshine Canyon.
Having just completed a full-on tear in the RS4, jumping into the A4 was like driving on rails.
In a hard-packed, cold-snow canyon, where exposed pavement was utterly unavailable, the RS4's power would not come into play, leaving the tire/snow interface as the only variable.
That day, I would have challenged anyone of any skill level in the RS4 to a jam up the canyon with me in the A4, and there just would have been no contest.
I was able to FLOOR the A4 on WS-50s through corners, where the RS4 on Dunlops would have been plowing on entry and fishtailing on exit.
I got back to the house, opened the door, greeted my Fiance and said only one word:
"WOW !"
12-11-2006, 09:40 PM
#7
AudiWorld Super User
It may not be the tire as much as...
the fact that the A4 has less power and was likely on either 17's or 18's with a much narrower tire width. The RS4 255/35-19's are definitely a compromise solution for the snow.
Trending Topics
12-12-2006, 04:32 AM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WS 50 is a winter studless tire....M3, 3D are winter performance tires, BIG diffference
I had the WS 50 on my S4 last year. This is a winter studless tire, with much different tread design AND composition. In the snow, it is an animal. I embarrassed my brother in his Defender last winter getting up his driveway in 8" of snow up in VT. It was near impossible for me to get the tires to spin, nearly. I had them in VT often, and they were great. They are a MUCH different tire than the Dunlops, or even the blizzak LM-25.
That being said, the WS 50 is squirmy on the dry, try taking an on/off ramp at 45, let alone 70. I noticed a huge difference in handling with the tire. If you need a real snow tire for your everyday driver, this is the tire to get.
I went with the 3D on my RS4 this year for a couple of reasons. I now have an SUV for any poor snow conditions. Not that the Audi can not handle the weather, but I really don't want to take out the RS4 on poor weather days, get the paint dinged, and risk some fool sliding into me. Second, there were only 7 days total last year I needed winter tires at all. For this, I had a crappy looking 17" set up on m S4, mediorce handling on dry pavement for the 98% of the days the tires were on. Many have done it, but no way did I want skinny 18" wheels on my RS4.
That being said, the WS 50 is squirmy on the dry, try taking an on/off ramp at 45, let alone 70. I noticed a huge difference in handling with the tire. If you need a real snow tire for your everyday driver, this is the tire to get.
I went with the 3D on my RS4 this year for a couple of reasons. I now have an SUV for any poor snow conditions. Not that the Audi can not handle the weather, but I really don't want to take out the RS4 on poor weather days, get the paint dinged, and risk some fool sliding into me. Second, there were only 7 days total last year I needed winter tires at all. For this, I had a crappy looking 17" set up on m S4, mediorce handling on dry pavement for the 98% of the days the tires were on. Many have done it, but no way did I want skinny 18" wheels on my RS4.
12-12-2006, 07:09 AM
#10
New Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hard to say, A4's tires are actually WIDER...
The 17" configuration on the A4 requires a 10mm WIDER tire than the 18" setup on the RS4.
So, naturally, I would have expected traditional snow tire sizing wisdom to prevail.
However, I'm not sure that traditional wisdom might not be up for renewal...
We have traditionally sought narrower tires in snow configuration for two reasons, increased PSI at the contact patch, and more knife-like plowing through deep snow and more especially deep heavy slush.
However, this wisdom was concocted at a time when rubber compounds and tread patterns were very different.
Along came the super-hydrophillic compound, and the super-siped treadblock pattern. These elements rely on things OTHER THAN pressure to do their best work.
I wonder if, as long as deep snow conditions are ignored, a WIDER tire might not be superior when it comes to the number of biting edges per square inch of contact patch.
The RS4 is significantly heavier, its tires were narrower, and so by traditional wisdom, it should have had the advantage. But this was so obviously not the case, that I have to think that the difference was ultimately down to the tire.
To put it another way, even under braking in a straight line, the lighter, wider-shod A4 was able to generate AT LEAST 2x the rate of deceleration compared to the RS4.
To put it still another way, I ran WS-50s on my M3 for 4 years, so I got to know the feeling in my hands and butt as they did their work. When I jumped into the A4 on WS-50s, I reconnected with that old feeling like an old pair of shoes.
The Dunlop simply doesn't have the snow grip of the Bridgestone, but that's not the surprise here; We know the Dunlop is biased toward dry-weather performance, whereas the Bridgestone is biased toward slippery conditions.
The surprise here is just how big that difference really is.
As for power differences between the A4 and RS4, let me just say that through all axes, I simply felt greater forces acting on my body in the A4 than I could have in the RS4.
Perhaps next time I will mount the GTech Pro RR in both situations, and graph the g-forces available in both cars. That might be very interesting...
So, naturally, I would have expected traditional snow tire sizing wisdom to prevail.
However, I'm not sure that traditional wisdom might not be up for renewal...
We have traditionally sought narrower tires in snow configuration for two reasons, increased PSI at the contact patch, and more knife-like plowing through deep snow and more especially deep heavy slush.
However, this wisdom was concocted at a time when rubber compounds and tread patterns were very different.
Along came the super-hydrophillic compound, and the super-siped treadblock pattern. These elements rely on things OTHER THAN pressure to do their best work.
I wonder if, as long as deep snow conditions are ignored, a WIDER tire might not be superior when it comes to the number of biting edges per square inch of contact patch.
The RS4 is significantly heavier, its tires were narrower, and so by traditional wisdom, it should have had the advantage. But this was so obviously not the case, that I have to think that the difference was ultimately down to the tire.
To put it another way, even under braking in a straight line, the lighter, wider-shod A4 was able to generate AT LEAST 2x the rate of deceleration compared to the RS4.
To put it still another way, I ran WS-50s on my M3 for 4 years, so I got to know the feeling in my hands and butt as they did their work. When I jumped into the A4 on WS-50s, I reconnected with that old feeling like an old pair of shoes.
The Dunlop simply doesn't have the snow grip of the Bridgestone, but that's not the surprise here; We know the Dunlop is biased toward dry-weather performance, whereas the Bridgestone is biased toward slippery conditions.
The surprise here is just how big that difference really is.
As for power differences between the A4 and RS4, let me just say that through all axes, I simply felt greater forces acting on my body in the A4 than I could have in the RS4.
Perhaps next time I will mount the GTech Pro RR in both situations, and graph the g-forces available in both cars. That might be very interesting...