S4 v. A4
11-21-1999, 10:34 AM
#1
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S4 v. A4
Trying to decide between an S4 and an A4. The S4 has awesome acceleration and I love it, but I'm never going to race, I'll mainly use the car to commute, and it's maybe $6-8k more. The A4 has pretty good acceleration, same handling, but isn't as "exciting." What to do? Anyone else faced this choice? What caused you to go one way or the other?
11-21-1999, 11:05 AM
#2
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Slacking overseas research to respond to A4.org, how sad...
Or is this officially responding on S4.org? :-)
My opinion has changed on this, pretty much every time I sit down in an S4 I wonder if we should have bought a 2000 S4 rather than a 1999 1.8T.
Honestly, it depends on what you expect from your "commute". I'm not in my home city(ies) much, so I expect to enjoy every moment of my driving, I drive cars for enjoyment. At the same time, since I'm away often, I have time available for tuning and can give my car to a tuner for a year while I'm overseas, come back, and have an enhanced driving experience.
My opinion would also vary according to which country you're in, the S4 is a much better "deal" in the U.S. than in the U.K. or in Australia (especially Australia).
My opinion? (in $USD)
2000 A4 1.8T with basic upgrades
A4 1.8T = ~$25,000
Quattro = ~$01,500
Recaros = ~$01,500
Recaro Brackets = ~$00,800
Coilovers = ~$02,200
Brakes = ~$08,500
Chip = ~$00,500
Exhaust = ~$01,000
Total = ~$41,000
2000 S4 2.7T with basic upgrades
S4 2.7T = ~$44,000 (depending on options)
Quattro = ~$00,000
Coilovers = ~$02,200
Brakes = ~$08,500
It works out to a ~$12,000 delta in Cameron New Math, again, using approximate U.S. pricing, and presuming you're paying list and are able to get labor at negligible cost in either case.
From my POV, there should only be two cars to choose from. A 1997 A4 1.8T Manual and a 2000 S4 2.7T Manual if you want to tune the car. If you don't plan to tune the car, there would be three cars on my list - A6 4.2 Auto, TT 6spd, S4 6spd or Auto.
For 99% of the street driving you describe, the S4 power is more than adequate, but the brakes need to be improved about ten thousand per-cent in my opinion as the stock brakes on the S4 are downright dangerous. The A4 is the same way, it needs real brakes. Everything else is a less important modification, except perhaps suspension. A well-driven A4 1.8T is as beautiful as a well-driven S4 2.7T... choose one, modify it safely, and drive it well.
Cameron
Borrowed Citroen RGVL with 2.7L and Kenyan papers... believe me, the only thing it shares with an S4 is displacement
My opinion has changed on this, pretty much every time I sit down in an S4 I wonder if we should have bought a 2000 S4 rather than a 1999 1.8T.
Honestly, it depends on what you expect from your "commute". I'm not in my home city(ies) much, so I expect to enjoy every moment of my driving, I drive cars for enjoyment. At the same time, since I'm away often, I have time available for tuning and can give my car to a tuner for a year while I'm overseas, come back, and have an enhanced driving experience.
My opinion would also vary according to which country you're in, the S4 is a much better "deal" in the U.S. than in the U.K. or in Australia (especially Australia).
My opinion? (in $USD)
2000 A4 1.8T with basic upgrades
A4 1.8T = ~$25,000
Quattro = ~$01,500
Recaros = ~$01,500
Recaro Brackets = ~$00,800
Coilovers = ~$02,200
Brakes = ~$08,500
Chip = ~$00,500
Exhaust = ~$01,000
Total = ~$41,000
2000 S4 2.7T with basic upgrades
S4 2.7T = ~$44,000 (depending on options)
Quattro = ~$00,000
Coilovers = ~$02,200
Brakes = ~$08,500
It works out to a ~$12,000 delta in Cameron New Math, again, using approximate U.S. pricing, and presuming you're paying list and are able to get labor at negligible cost in either case.
From my POV, there should only be two cars to choose from. A 1997 A4 1.8T Manual and a 2000 S4 2.7T Manual if you want to tune the car. If you don't plan to tune the car, there would be three cars on my list - A6 4.2 Auto, TT 6spd, S4 6spd or Auto.
For 99% of the street driving you describe, the S4 power is more than adequate, but the brakes need to be improved about ten thousand per-cent in my opinion as the stock brakes on the S4 are downright dangerous. The A4 is the same way, it needs real brakes. Everything else is a less important modification, except perhaps suspension. A well-driven A4 1.8T is as beautiful as a well-driven S4 2.7T... choose one, modify it safely, and drive it well.
Cameron
Borrowed Citroen RGVL with 2.7L and Kenyan papers... believe me, the only thing it shares with an S4 is displacement
11-21-1999, 12:05 PM
#6
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Honestly, it's a shame you can upgrade S4 brakes so much...
I see the S4 as a car that should have braking distances similar to an A4 with brake upgrades. Take my tuned 1997 A4 as an example of such a car. The car should have (at least) decent four-piston brakes front and rear similar to a very basic upgrade caliper (like the Porsche OE calipers) and, preferably, would be outfitted with better four-piston calipers all around on 14"/12" or 13"/12" or (ideally) six-piston multipad calipers in the front as other sports sedans are outfitted (E55 Touring S, RENNTech 7.4RS., XJR LK Limousine, Brabus C55L, AMG S600RL, Citroen XT-M, etc.)
Instead, Audi not only provides insufficient braking for high speed use (yes, I realize that MTM offers four-piston front and rear setups in Europe and that Quattro GMbH has access to that hardware) but also provides completely unsatisfying braking for street use in terms of feel and overall driving satisfaction. Further, the braking system is not well-suited to a top-quality upgrade since a new master configuration is needed for adequate fluid volume (in the case of four-piston calipers front and rear, and for other upgrades).
It absolutely astounds me that Audi would make a performance car on the B5 platform and have it be just as underbraked as the platform's baseline sedans while not encouraging upgrades by providing basic hardware on a stock car. The mind boggles.
Cameron
formerly 1997 A4 1.8T with touring car brakes (sold)
Instead, Audi not only provides insufficient braking for high speed use (yes, I realize that MTM offers four-piston front and rear setups in Europe and that Quattro GMbH has access to that hardware) but also provides completely unsatisfying braking for street use in terms of feel and overall driving satisfaction. Further, the braking system is not well-suited to a top-quality upgrade since a new master configuration is needed for adequate fluid volume (in the case of four-piston calipers front and rear, and for other upgrades).
It absolutely astounds me that Audi would make a performance car on the B5 platform and have it be just as underbraked as the platform's baseline sedans while not encouraging upgrades by providing basic hardware on a stock car. The mind boggles.
Cameron
formerly 1997 A4 1.8T with touring car brakes (sold)
11-21-1999, 12:31 PM
#7
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Dude, seriously
I think it's sort of odd how some of you hold this car up to a magnifying glass and say that it's unsuitable in stock form for your use, which you must admit is a rather lofty view. I mean, it certainly seems fine for your average driver, or even most enthusiasts. I think it's all a matter of perspective.
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11-21-1999, 01:27 PM
#8
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Joe hit the nail on the head, it's *all* perspective...
Braking for the S4 is better than most cars on the road by a significant margin. The S4 brakes better and shorter than many of the alternatives and it's in the same order of magnitude in terms of stopping power as its competitors (Porsche Boxster, Porsche 993 C4, E36 ///M3, C43, etc.).
The motor in the S4 is great, honestly I think it's one of the best motors I've ever driven, the best in terms of predictability and power band.
Braking is something all reviewers comment on, and with a remarkable powerplant, remarkable driveline, and remarkable brakes, I'd think Audi would be able to draw more people into the showroom and satisfy more owners. Also, given the huge covariance between S-car owners also owning Porsches, I would think it would be in Audi's best interests to make the S4 stop at least as well as the Porsches.
Lastly, yes, there are people here who hold these cars up to magnifying glasses. It's because the S4 is not a car that competes at a pricepoint. The S4 is a better car, with a few minor tweaks described in the earlier post, than many cars where the European taxes on the car would exceed the list price of a U.S. S4. Many of the people buying S4's and looking at S4's are people who live in cities like San Francisco, Seattle, and Paris where nothing bigger than an S4 can realistically be parked, so the A6 and A8 variants are unrealistic regardless of price. The TT is a great alternative, being about the size of a 911 with otherworldly styling but not styling so bold as to limit the ownership to supermodels and drug dealers (listen up, Lamborghini).
The shopping list is roughly equal in terms of usable horsepower in the "commuter plus impress your buddy" range and all the cars have neat interiors. The place Audi lags is braking (along with the RX-7 and the Z on this list...).
Possible shopping list (for example):
2000 996 Carrera 4 Cab
2000 S4 2.7T with sunroof
2000 TT 6spd Spyder
2000 NSX-T 6spd
USED Z T-Top Man
USED Mazda RX-7 GenIV Man
USED 968 Cab Man
USED Honda Del Sol VTEC
These eight cars are a pretty plausible list, the Del Sol, 911, Z, and TT are the best size for a city like Paris. The NSX, Z, 911, and 968 (presuming it's wearing any type of suspension) lack the ground clearance for use in cities like Chicago, New York, and Milan. Only the 911, S4, and TT are 4WD and hence can be drive-to-work year round even in Copenhagen, Oslo, and Minneapolis.
These are the things that matter in day-to-day driving, where zero to sixty times are limited to their small relevance in dinnertime discussion.
Brakes are what I value. I didn't think brakes were so important until having a car with excellent brakes and realizing what the Porsches I'd driven were missing. Bottom line is there's nothing that adds safety to your commute, drops your lap times, increases winter and rain drivability, increases balance, and decreases worry like good brakes with proper wheels/tires.
Just my opinion,
Cameron
The motor in the S4 is great, honestly I think it's one of the best motors I've ever driven, the best in terms of predictability and power band.
Braking is something all reviewers comment on, and with a remarkable powerplant, remarkable driveline, and remarkable brakes, I'd think Audi would be able to draw more people into the showroom and satisfy more owners. Also, given the huge covariance between S-car owners also owning Porsches, I would think it would be in Audi's best interests to make the S4 stop at least as well as the Porsches.
Lastly, yes, there are people here who hold these cars up to magnifying glasses. It's because the S4 is not a car that competes at a pricepoint. The S4 is a better car, with a few minor tweaks described in the earlier post, than many cars where the European taxes on the car would exceed the list price of a U.S. S4. Many of the people buying S4's and looking at S4's are people who live in cities like San Francisco, Seattle, and Paris where nothing bigger than an S4 can realistically be parked, so the A6 and A8 variants are unrealistic regardless of price. The TT is a great alternative, being about the size of a 911 with otherworldly styling but not styling so bold as to limit the ownership to supermodels and drug dealers (listen up, Lamborghini).
The shopping list is roughly equal in terms of usable horsepower in the "commuter plus impress your buddy" range and all the cars have neat interiors. The place Audi lags is braking (along with the RX-7 and the Z on this list...).
Possible shopping list (for example):
2000 996 Carrera 4 Cab
2000 S4 2.7T with sunroof
2000 TT 6spd Spyder
2000 NSX-T 6spd
USED Z T-Top Man
USED Mazda RX-7 GenIV Man
USED 968 Cab Man
USED Honda Del Sol VTEC
These eight cars are a pretty plausible list, the Del Sol, 911, Z, and TT are the best size for a city like Paris. The NSX, Z, 911, and 968 (presuming it's wearing any type of suspension) lack the ground clearance for use in cities like Chicago, New York, and Milan. Only the 911, S4, and TT are 4WD and hence can be drive-to-work year round even in Copenhagen, Oslo, and Minneapolis.
These are the things that matter in day-to-day driving, where zero to sixty times are limited to their small relevance in dinnertime discussion.
Brakes are what I value. I didn't think brakes were so important until having a car with excellent brakes and realizing what the Porsches I'd driven were missing. Bottom line is there's nothing that adds safety to your commute, drops your lap times, increases winter and rain drivability, increases balance, and decreases worry like good brakes with proper wheels/tires.
Just my opinion,
Cameron
11-21-1999, 01:42 PM
#9
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Oddly, the path of these posts is irrelevant...
If you think the S4 brakes are adequate, you'll think the A4 brakes are adequate -- the difference between the two is negligible, they feel the same, and the distances are within ten feet. If you think one is inadequate, you'll think the other is inadequate, so this isn't a good way for you to decide between the two cars.
Personally, I think for the commuter with some wow factor, it's tough to beat an S4. The price difference is not insignificant but apparently not a prime consideration, and the added value of the six-speed manual alone seems worthwhile, let alone the great powerplant.
If you want to play with the car, get a 1.8T. If you want to play, get a 2.7T. Both cars have little tweaks to be made, but the shortcomings are similar between the two. Get one and be happy. It's really that simple.
Cameron
Personally, I think for the commuter with some wow factor, it's tough to beat an S4. The price difference is not insignificant but apparently not a prime consideration, and the added value of the six-speed manual alone seems worthwhile, let alone the great powerplant.
If you want to play with the car, get a 1.8T. If you want to play, get a 2.7T. Both cars have little tweaks to be made, but the shortcomings are similar between the two. Get one and be happy. It's really that simple.
Cameron