Brad Willis

Let me start this post by stating that I do not consider myself an expert on racing or high-performance tuning. I've made some phone calls recently, and tried my best to learn, and now to to share. So hopefully, this information is accurate, but if not, please be polite and not confrontational/rude like some.

I spent some time on the phone with the owner of a local racing/high-performance shop discussing some of the handling issues with the TT, and I asked for his take on the situation. This fellow was a friend of a friend, and I didn't write down his name or the name of his shop, although I can easily get it, if it matters to anyone.

I told him my synopsis of ALL of the TT's handling issues, read him Audi's press release relating to the voluntary recall, and also read aloud Marius' post regarding some of the very specific modifications which we are anticipating.

To explain the major problem and how Audi intends to correct it, please visualize a 90 degree right hand turn, which you are about to take at a very high speed. Due to the neutral design of the TT, you will initially take the turn just fine, and the nose of your TT will come around with the turn. Just when you think that you are truly riding on rails, your back end will kick out suddenly and without warning, going in to an "oversteer" mode. Hopefully, you are able to correct this by turning your wheel to the left a bit, and stepping on the gas. If you do not correct properly, your TT will spin out.

What Audi is apparently trying to do is to introduce some understeer. Picture the same 90 degree right turn and once again, there you are in your TT taking this turn WAY too fast. Only difference is that now you have had the suspension modifications. When you attempt to turn your wheel to the right, your front end will instead lose grip. Rather that tracking most of the turn and then having your back end swing out, this time your TT will not take the turn. Your front wheels will be pointed to the right, but the car will still be traveling more or less straight. You are now experiencing plow/understeer. You will then think, "Heck, I'm not going to make this turn" and press your brakes. Hopefully you can slow enough to regain your traction, or if not, at least quickly enough to avoid hitting that pole ahead of you head-on (versus the oversteer problem, where you spin into the pole).

The gentleman that I spoke to said that he would probably prefer the TT's current configuration if one really knew the car well, and was a very experienced and competent driver. Of course, we all think that we are wonderful drivers, but often the truth is something different. For the masses, the TT can still be a nimble and fun car with the Audi modifications, and should give an earlier warning of loss of traction, i.e. it will feel sloppier sooner. The term "sloppy" sounds pretty bad, and might be an unfair term to use, but for some drivers that extra warning might keep them from losing control, or if control is lost, an understeer plow might be easier to control then an oversteer spin.

I asked him what we should do. He thought that the spoiler should help and would probably be beneficial at higher speeds, but we didn't really discuss the aesthetics of it. He said that he would probably not do the modifications until he had an opportunity to drive a modified TT and compare for himself. If that was not practical, he would ask if he could keep all of the old parts so that if the mods were completed, and they were not to his liking, he could put the old parts back on to restore the original ride.

I don't know if this information helps, but I thought that it was interesting.

Ari Jay Comet

Having had plenty of chances with my turbocharged Neon to race it and a variety of speeds, I have learned to drive the car as it is setup. While others have driven it and hated it's quick "turn in" or sensitive steering, I prefer it!

But i regress. Your "friends friend" is correct - the oversteer is preferred in FWD race drivers almost 2 to 1. It is just how many people want the car to be. You want the car to be predictable, although often times in the "real world" that isnt how it works.

Audi AG is doing their best to react to the "average" driver, whom will most likely brake,a s you stated, in your scenario. Too many people dont understand the idea (or cant utilize) counter-steering.

Perhaps they should do for the TT what they do for the Lamborghini Diablo. They offer driving schools where you can drive your car - not necessarily just at high speeds - but also in places where you can safely learn the limitations of the car.

I'd love to have a chance to get my Audi out on course - but aside from 2 autocrosses, I just cant do it. My Neon takes priority!

Regardless, I feel content with my Audi's current setup, knowing that I can predict and handle the car as it remains now. I dont need a babysitter to make my car "easier" to drive. Blah..

Sorry to ramble so long... nice post tho, Brad... danke!

-Ari

J Matt

The truth is most people on this forum don't even understand the terms understeer/oversteer let alone know how to induce/affect one or the other. Let's face it, most of us in america are used to driving detuned suspension fwd cars that push by default. When joe doe hits the brakes, he expects the car to skid in a straight line to a stop so he can collect himself and drive some more.

Carl

Brad, thanks for the very visual description and translation into English-speak.

One question - The literature here is suggesting that the tail breaks out without much notice at all; and quite dramatically. Is there really enough time to react to this with the gas? Consider the circumstances; you're on the gas already and certainly not covering brake if you're in this high speed turn, so that works in your favor. But then the tail gives out, and at 80+ mph, how much acceleration power is available (assuming you respond with speed and force) to pull the tail back?

Also (okay, a second question), are we all in agreement that braking is NOT a requirement for this undesireable high-speed behaviour? Because if I'm hitting the brakes hard at 80+, I'm prepared for the worst already; but if I'm taking a hard turn and it's feeling good, the tail move could be quite a suprise - so it would be nice to know we should be on alert under a normal hard turn as well as during a hard brake.

tia
Carl

fraTTe

Agree with you; maybe the problem is more a question of driving hability and driving culture (nt)

Benson

Being able to catch the rear depends on the conditions. When the auto journalists praise the ability to side-step the tail what they're saying is that the rear end is sliding but they're able to control it. So in that case it's catchable. For more extreme situations it wouldn't be.

Hitting the brakes isn't a requirement. Disturbing the vehicle's dynamic equilibrium when it's at the limit is all that's necessary. That's what I perceive is the happening. The car is at the limit and the driver doesn't know it. Nothing is telegraphing this fact to him/her. So when the limit is exceeded it comes as a surprise.
Benson

mne

To question one: unless theres a catastrophic failure of a mechanical part or component and you havent touched the brakes (very important) you will probably in all but the MOST extreme cases have time to recover if you know the tecnique AND theres no one coming at you in the opposite lane or other extinuating/contributing circumstances. Conversely if you hit the brakes or incur that component failure it can happen too abruptly and suddenly to recover from. But even the most experienced drivers still lose it from time to time as witnessed on any race track in any form of racing. Sometimes you can save it, sometimes ya can't. If you posess good driving skills, good reflexes, are alert and stay calm you could probably recover from most scenarios you're likely to encounter on public roads. But even that goes out the door in the event of stupidity and recklesness on the part of you, me or others on the road. Most accidents are recoverable from or preventable. Most highway near misses are just that. But if you're driving double the posted speeds and something jumps out in front of you theres very little you can do. In racing you point the car straight at the intruder and hope he/she/it is gone when you get there. Might as well... at those speeds the brakes take away or severely compromise your steering and turn you into a projectile by virtue of spin, loss of control or abrupt change of direction.... even with ABS.

In answer to your 2nd question: You dont really need alot of power to influence inertial changes in the car. You dont need to be able to peel out at 80mph to recover. All you need to do is transfer weight away from the front towards the rear. Unload the front tires and reload the rear of the car. Its not a speed/power thing so much as a weight transfer. Tho torque and gobs of power can and does allow it to happen quicker.

DennyA

Thanks for the great post, Brad.

When I first drive a new (to me) car, I gradually test its limits. In taking curves, I might gradually increase the speed. If it feels ok at 40 mph, I'll try it a little faster. With all the cars I've driven, I start to feel uncomfortable at a certain speek. Nothing bad has heppened, but I get the sense that if I took it much faster, I could be in trouble.

From what I can understand, the TT does not give that type of warning. It feels great until the point where the rear end breaks away. If the suspension modifications will help provide that little bit of uneasiness that tells me I'm getting close to the limit, I'm all for it.

What I don't understand is the braking and how the TT handles differently from other cars. If I am driving around a curve at a high speed and have to stop, I expect that I will have some handling issues. Are the TT's any different from my old 1982 Audi Coupe? I was driving around a left hand curve the other day at about 40 mph and decided to just tap the brakes. I think (not positive) that I felt the rear slide just a bit to the right. Is this what occurs?

DennyA