OT: My .02 on the whole OT posting affair (ok, it's long, so maybe .12 cents :-D)
01-14-2002, 11:00 AM
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OT: My .02 on the whole OT posting affair (ok, it's long, so maybe .12 cents :-D)
OT is a necessary "evil", and here's why: it is fundamental to the TT forum experience, and therefore, to the TT forum's existence as well. Like a few other lucky souls, I was away from the forum over the week-end, and discovered this fray today. I read many of the posts in the various fora, and then did some research.
Since this whole affair apparently started because of accusations that we on the TT forum receive special treatment because more OT stuff is allowed in our forums, then that is where these people should focus. Obviously, if two posts are both OT, and one is moderated or deleted and the other is not, the logical person would compare the two posts in an attempt to ascertain the reasons behind the decision, subjective as they may be. Since messages are deleted or moderated by human beings and not by some automated filtering system, there are bound to be disputes. Mr. Teller, feel free to corract me if I am wrong, but AW probably nominates moderators based on their perception of that person's ability to moderate with a fair, even-handed approach. That is probably why the moderators are members of the forums they are moderating.
If that is the case, one must conclude that each forums' needs are different. Otherwise, why bother? AW could nominate anyone to be a monitor. Many people kept harping on the Terms of Use, but that pertains to keeping things civil, and has nothing to do with OT, nor does it even address the subject. Therefore, one may infer that any subject is acceptable, as long as it meets the criteria set out in the terms of use regarding vulgarity, advertisements, etc. If you don't think that each forums' needs are different, instead of looking at the Terms of Use, look instead at About Audiworld, and its larger relative, BVerticals. I did, and here are some excerpt and quotes from both:
"BVerticals provides the technology and business infrastructure, allowing its partners to do what they do best -- develop content that meets the needs of their highly targeted niche audiences." - From BVertical's press release on April 17, 2000.
"We won't integrate all the content into one site," he said. "The sites today really are a testament that people want their own place on the Web. We will just run them on a common back end." - John Gillies, CEO of BVerticals and PickupTruck.com, in a May 200 article in Automotive News.
These first two statements underscore the true mission of the sites. Since AW does not have a published mission statement, what we need to ask ourselves is, what is AW? For us, the forum participants, AW is a form of entertainment. Informative? Yes. Timely? Absolutely. A source for all things Audi? Nobody does it better. But, entertainment it still is, first and foremost.
"Levine says that together the four sites in the e-co/op attract nearly 1 million enthusiasts and new visitors each month, and that most visitors return every eight days for the sites' updated content." - Michael Levine, Founder and President, PickupTruck.com, in a May 200 article in IautoNews.
I wonder what the stats are on our little forum? For some here, it might be every 8 minutes. :-)
"Shortly after the August '99 redesign it became apparent that the A4.Org no longer properly reflected what the site had become." - From the About AudiWorld page on www.audiworld.com
This last quote to me encapsulates my whole point: the forum is an ever-changing beast. I've been on the forum for a couple of years now, and I have seen the nature of the forum change. We used to talk almost exclusively about our cars, but we have evolved past that, for a couple of reasons.
First is we (again, whenever I use the word "we" I mean the TT forum only) tend to scrutinize things more completely. When some new product comes out, I find out about it on the forum, usually from another alert forum person who wants to share his or her find with the rest of us. When we turn our magnifying lens on a subject, we pretty much cover it to death, then move on. The key words here are "move on": when someone starts a thread about Zymol vs. Zaino, you can almost hear the eyeballs rolling. Why? Because we've beaten that subject firmly into the ground. When a new part or accessory becomes available, we pick it to death. But we do this with everything, from exhaust systems to dessert toppings. But, since the strictly TT-world is finite, we cannot only discuss our cars, or the forum would have run its course already.
The second is because of our smaller size group, our forum has taken on a different feel to it. To a person I think most of us would refer to the TT Forum as a "family" (and like most families, we get defensive and circle the wagons when we feel someone is trying to attack us, whether the feeling is justified or not), but a family that does not know each other except for the forum. It is this family-feel that I think is what causes us to want to get together, be it locally or nationally, and we are unique among the Audi forums in this respect. We have an almost biological need to see each other face to face, and we are keenly interested in each others non-tt interests, jobs, vacations, etc. Why? Who cares? We're a diverse, eclectic group, but we are above all a tolerant and friendly bunch and we frown upon anyone who isn't. And let's face it, too much talk on any one subject is booooooooooooooooooooooooooooring.
Also like families, we have our arguments and dysfunctional moments, but like most families, we straighten them out and move ahead. The forum belongs to us inasmuch as we comprise the forum, but the actual forum DOES belong to someone, and perhaps we lose sight of that from time to time, because of the freedom we enjoy here on the TT forum. The TT Forum isn't moderated as heavily as other forums because we don't need to be, and when we have stepped over the line, I think we have shown an amazing ability to police ourselves.
I'm as guilty as anyone here of posting a fair amount of OT stuff. I contribute to TT-related things whenever I feel I have something to contribute. I'm sure that description fits many of us here, and as a result, we have developed some "departments". MichaelTT, LarryTT, Hottub, etc., are all people who others less-well-versed on the subject can go to for engine/suspension/racing type info. Jeff Bipes can always be counted on for TT electronic contributions. New press release or TT/Audi-related info? Denny will be there. I bought my APR chip and Borla exhaust because of the opinions expressed on this forum by its members.
But we also enjoy our own in-house legal counsel (GuilTTy), chef (Rahul), financial consultant (Brad Willis), etc. Hell, we even have in-house authorities on salt water fish tanks!
The bottom line is, the TT forum cannot exist strictly as an either on or off-topic forum. We cannot talk only TT-related stuff, as we would run out of topics very quickly. Nor would we be able to successfully support a TT-OT forum (Catchy name though: TTOT's, kind of apropos were it filled with endless streams of childish banter :-D), because I for one, do not feel inclined to switch to another forum just to make a different comment. You wouldn't have to worry about people threatening to leave out of spite, they would do it out of boredom or insouciance.
Look at how many posts here start as one subject, and quickly derail into another subject or subjects, which have little or nothing to do with the original post. Does the original poster care? No, not usually. In fact, that's part of what gives this forum it's unique charm, and it's the one of the reasons I frequent it. Someone else mentioned the fact that we have had several national gatherings with more planned. We also plan other things, like the cookbook, ski-trips, group buys, etc. All of these things are TT-related, even if not strictly about cars. We do these things because we like each others company, and we want to meet the people with whom we converse with on a daily basis on this Forum. It is ultimately the car itself and the forum about the car that unites all of us, but these cannot be the only things. We have myriad other interests, and we need to be able to discuss them, whenever, and wherever we want. Hey, if the A4/S4 forum was nothing but talk about turbo upgrades and chips to the exclusion of everything else, so be it. That's what THEY want to talk about. What do I care? Likewise, we should be free to discuss whatever we wish, as long as it does not violate the terms of use.
If someone else thinks we're all latent homosexuals or cooking freaks, what do I care? I'm sorry, but I graduated from elementary school a long time ago, and I have no need for such petty arguments. I don't even read the other forums.
OT posts should be moderated as needed when they violate the terms of use. But the application of enforcement is the key. While I agree it cannot be selective, it cannot be arbitrary either. Because there are OT posts and then there are OT posts. I don't think you'll get any arguments if a post is deleted because it is offensive, overly vulgar, etc. but we are all adults here, and most of us appreciate being treated that way. Just like any other form of entertainment, I choose what I watch, listen to, or read. If a post, whether OT or not, interests me, I'll look at it. If it doesn't, I won't. Simple as that.
If in fact this entire event began by people in other forums complaining that they don't enjoy the same freedom of postings that we have in our forum, then it is a sad affair indeed. But it becomes more important when it leads to the possible forced manipulation of the forum into something it's own members clearly do not want. OT has become a signature part of the TT forum, and I think AW has to accept it, just like they realized that A4.org "no longer properly reflected what the site had become." Because if you start splitting hairs about what OT stuff you will allow and what you won't, then, you are opening up a Pandora's box, while simultaneously perhaps closing the box on the TT forum. Anyway, that's the opinion of this AW TT Forum member.
Since this whole affair apparently started because of accusations that we on the TT forum receive special treatment because more OT stuff is allowed in our forums, then that is where these people should focus. Obviously, if two posts are both OT, and one is moderated or deleted and the other is not, the logical person would compare the two posts in an attempt to ascertain the reasons behind the decision, subjective as they may be. Since messages are deleted or moderated by human beings and not by some automated filtering system, there are bound to be disputes. Mr. Teller, feel free to corract me if I am wrong, but AW probably nominates moderators based on their perception of that person's ability to moderate with a fair, even-handed approach. That is probably why the moderators are members of the forums they are moderating.
If that is the case, one must conclude that each forums' needs are different. Otherwise, why bother? AW could nominate anyone to be a monitor. Many people kept harping on the Terms of Use, but that pertains to keeping things civil, and has nothing to do with OT, nor does it even address the subject. Therefore, one may infer that any subject is acceptable, as long as it meets the criteria set out in the terms of use regarding vulgarity, advertisements, etc. If you don't think that each forums' needs are different, instead of looking at the Terms of Use, look instead at About Audiworld, and its larger relative, BVerticals. I did, and here are some excerpt and quotes from both:
"BVerticals provides the technology and business infrastructure, allowing its partners to do what they do best -- develop content that meets the needs of their highly targeted niche audiences." - From BVertical's press release on April 17, 2000.
"We won't integrate all the content into one site," he said. "The sites today really are a testament that people want their own place on the Web. We will just run them on a common back end." - John Gillies, CEO of BVerticals and PickupTruck.com, in a May 200 article in Automotive News.
These first two statements underscore the true mission of the sites. Since AW does not have a published mission statement, what we need to ask ourselves is, what is AW? For us, the forum participants, AW is a form of entertainment. Informative? Yes. Timely? Absolutely. A source for all things Audi? Nobody does it better. But, entertainment it still is, first and foremost.
"Levine says that together the four sites in the e-co/op attract nearly 1 million enthusiasts and new visitors each month, and that most visitors return every eight days for the sites' updated content." - Michael Levine, Founder and President, PickupTruck.com, in a May 200 article in IautoNews.
I wonder what the stats are on our little forum? For some here, it might be every 8 minutes. :-)
"Shortly after the August '99 redesign it became apparent that the A4.Org no longer properly reflected what the site had become." - From the About AudiWorld page on www.audiworld.com
This last quote to me encapsulates my whole point: the forum is an ever-changing beast. I've been on the forum for a couple of years now, and I have seen the nature of the forum change. We used to talk almost exclusively about our cars, but we have evolved past that, for a couple of reasons.
First is we (again, whenever I use the word "we" I mean the TT forum only) tend to scrutinize things more completely. When some new product comes out, I find out about it on the forum, usually from another alert forum person who wants to share his or her find with the rest of us. When we turn our magnifying lens on a subject, we pretty much cover it to death, then move on. The key words here are "move on": when someone starts a thread about Zymol vs. Zaino, you can almost hear the eyeballs rolling. Why? Because we've beaten that subject firmly into the ground. When a new part or accessory becomes available, we pick it to death. But we do this with everything, from exhaust systems to dessert toppings. But, since the strictly TT-world is finite, we cannot only discuss our cars, or the forum would have run its course already.
The second is because of our smaller size group, our forum has taken on a different feel to it. To a person I think most of us would refer to the TT Forum as a "family" (and like most families, we get defensive and circle the wagons when we feel someone is trying to attack us, whether the feeling is justified or not), but a family that does not know each other except for the forum. It is this family-feel that I think is what causes us to want to get together, be it locally or nationally, and we are unique among the Audi forums in this respect. We have an almost biological need to see each other face to face, and we are keenly interested in each others non-tt interests, jobs, vacations, etc. Why? Who cares? We're a diverse, eclectic group, but we are above all a tolerant and friendly bunch and we frown upon anyone who isn't. And let's face it, too much talk on any one subject is booooooooooooooooooooooooooooring.
Also like families, we have our arguments and dysfunctional moments, but like most families, we straighten them out and move ahead. The forum belongs to us inasmuch as we comprise the forum, but the actual forum DOES belong to someone, and perhaps we lose sight of that from time to time, because of the freedom we enjoy here on the TT forum. The TT Forum isn't moderated as heavily as other forums because we don't need to be, and when we have stepped over the line, I think we have shown an amazing ability to police ourselves.
I'm as guilty as anyone here of posting a fair amount of OT stuff. I contribute to TT-related things whenever I feel I have something to contribute. I'm sure that description fits many of us here, and as a result, we have developed some "departments". MichaelTT, LarryTT, Hottub, etc., are all people who others less-well-versed on the subject can go to for engine/suspension/racing type info. Jeff Bipes can always be counted on for TT electronic contributions. New press release or TT/Audi-related info? Denny will be there. I bought my APR chip and Borla exhaust because of the opinions expressed on this forum by its members.
But we also enjoy our own in-house legal counsel (GuilTTy), chef (Rahul), financial consultant (Brad Willis), etc. Hell, we even have in-house authorities on salt water fish tanks!
The bottom line is, the TT forum cannot exist strictly as an either on or off-topic forum. We cannot talk only TT-related stuff, as we would run out of topics very quickly. Nor would we be able to successfully support a TT-OT forum (Catchy name though: TTOT's, kind of apropos were it filled with endless streams of childish banter :-D), because I for one, do not feel inclined to switch to another forum just to make a different comment. You wouldn't have to worry about people threatening to leave out of spite, they would do it out of boredom or insouciance.
Look at how many posts here start as one subject, and quickly derail into another subject or subjects, which have little or nothing to do with the original post. Does the original poster care? No, not usually. In fact, that's part of what gives this forum it's unique charm, and it's the one of the reasons I frequent it. Someone else mentioned the fact that we have had several national gatherings with more planned. We also plan other things, like the cookbook, ski-trips, group buys, etc. All of these things are TT-related, even if not strictly about cars. We do these things because we like each others company, and we want to meet the people with whom we converse with on a daily basis on this Forum. It is ultimately the car itself and the forum about the car that unites all of us, but these cannot be the only things. We have myriad other interests, and we need to be able to discuss them, whenever, and wherever we want. Hey, if the A4/S4 forum was nothing but talk about turbo upgrades and chips to the exclusion of everything else, so be it. That's what THEY want to talk about. What do I care? Likewise, we should be free to discuss whatever we wish, as long as it does not violate the terms of use.
If someone else thinks we're all latent homosexuals or cooking freaks, what do I care? I'm sorry, but I graduated from elementary school a long time ago, and I have no need for such petty arguments. I don't even read the other forums.
OT posts should be moderated as needed when they violate the terms of use. But the application of enforcement is the key. While I agree it cannot be selective, it cannot be arbitrary either. Because there are OT posts and then there are OT posts. I don't think you'll get any arguments if a post is deleted because it is offensive, overly vulgar, etc. but we are all adults here, and most of us appreciate being treated that way. Just like any other form of entertainment, I choose what I watch, listen to, or read. If a post, whether OT or not, interests me, I'll look at it. If it doesn't, I won't. Simple as that.
If in fact this entire event began by people in other forums complaining that they don't enjoy the same freedom of postings that we have in our forum, then it is a sad affair indeed. But it becomes more important when it leads to the possible forced manipulation of the forum into something it's own members clearly do not want. OT has become a signature part of the TT forum, and I think AW has to accept it, just like they realized that A4.org "no longer properly reflected what the site had become." Because if you start splitting hairs about what OT stuff you will allow and what you won't, then, you are opening up a Pandora's box, while simultaneously perhaps closing the box on the TT forum. Anyway, that's the opinion of this AW TT Forum member.
01-14-2002, 11:40 AM
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right on!
I was lucky enough to miss out on all this fuss this weekend and there does seem to be a strange mood hanging over the forum. I hope people can move past it. I do enjoy lurking here and posting the odd comment (sometimes I even say stuff about the car!) and I would be sad to see things change to the point that would cause most of the core group to loose interest.
PS You forgot to mention that I am the resident LefTTy! :-D
PS You forgot to mention that I am the resident LefTTy! :-D
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01-14-2002, 11:47 AM
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Great post... My 2cents to Jason Teller - do nothing, wait and see if things calm down. If they do,
..I think they will, then we can just move along. The best use of power and control is not to use it in the first place.
