JWG

I have gone through a couple containers of Amsoil HHD (Series 3000 5w-30 Heavy Duty Diesel) and its good stuff. The engine found a little more power, had reduced crankcase pressure, and consumed a bit less oil than with 5w/10w-40 oils I used since my rebuild.

However, at $35/gallon (before discount) and still high oil consumption coming down from the valve seals on high RPMs (I decided to live with this for a while longer), I would like to find something a little more affordable and wanted to try their ACD (Synthetic 10W-30/SAE 30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil).

At $25/gallon, I like ACD's lack of paraffin wax or viscosity improvers and its similarly high TBN of 12. I have a smidge of a worry about the HTHS of 3.4, but my engine runs cool and clean with my oil filtration set-up and should not cause too much heat stress upon the oil.

Here are the specifications:

HDD (what I use now):
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) . . . 11.5
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) . . . 64.6
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) . . . 174
Cold Crank Simulator Apparent Viscosity @ -25°C, cP (ASTM D 2602) . . . 5086
Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97) . . . -50 (-58)
Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) . . . 228 (442)
Noack Volatility (DIN 51581) 250°C for 1 hour, % weight loss . . . 6.9
High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity, cP, 150°C, 1.0 x 106 s-1 (ASTM D-4683) . . . 3.5
Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172: 40kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr) Scar diameter, mm . . . 0.38
Total Base Number . . . 12.2

ACD:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) . . . 10.9
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) . . . 71.4
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) . . . 141
Cold Crank Simulator Apparent Viscosity @ -25°C, cP (ASTM D-2602) . . . 5165
Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) . . . -38 (-36)
Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) . . . 232 (450)
Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) . . . 246 (475)
Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800) . . . 6.3
High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity, cP, 150°C, 1.0 x 106 s-1 (ASTM D-4683) . . . 3.4 (I called for this spec.)
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172B: 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hour, Scar in mm) . . . 0.40
Total Base Number . . . 12.0

ACD also has these ratings:
* API CI-4+/CH-4/CG-4/SL
* API CF/CE/CD/CC
* API CF-2/CD-II
* Global DHD-1
* ACEA A3/B3, E2, E3, E5
* JASO DH-1
* Mack EO-N Premium Plus '03
* Detroit Diesel Power Guard 93K214
* Caterpillar ECF-1
* Cummins CES 20076/20077/20078 (current), 20071/20072 (older)
* Volvo VDS3/VDS2
* Mercedes Benz 228.1/228.3/229.1
* MAN 3275
* MTU Type 1
* MIL-PRF-2104G
* Allison C-4

How do these compare given your knowledge of oil (Any obvious weaknesses with ACD)?
Given your knowledge of the 12v and my mods (esp. TotalSeal Rings), do you see anything wrong in my using ACD in my 12v?

moribundman

but I'd also like to pose the question to some guys who know more about AMSOIL than I do. I'll get back to you here within 24 hours. ;-)

kalivornian

is there like an 'OiL SCHOOL' you guys go to? i've read about it but thers still so much!!!

moribundman

TooSlick (AMSOIL fellow, knows tons about VW and Audi engines) said:

<i>Take a look at the specs on the Amsoil, 10w-30 (API/SL), Four Stroke Marine oil (WCT). I just ordered some of this to run in my brand new Subaru and expect it to hold up very well.

WCT:

Vis @ 100C, 11.7 Cst
FP, +457F
PP, -51F
CCS @ -13F, 6000 Cp (thicker basestocks than the 10w-30/ATM)
HT/HS viscosity, 3.64 CP @ 150C
HT/HS viscosity after 30 cycles through a Bosch injector: 3.60 Cp @ 150C (99.14% viscosity retention)
VI 152 (little or no polymeric thickeners)
TBN 10.5 - that's plenty for 10k-12k OCI's
Noack, 4.8%

For HiPo gas engines, I believe this is an even more robust formulation than the S3000. These NMMA FC-W, certified four stroke oils are tested w/ 8% fuel dilution, using an outboard motor in a big tank. As the kids say, this is some "Bomber" stuff.

They've left any diesel rating off of this because they don't want you using it in marine diesels. Their 15w-40/AME is the preferred product there....</i>


Pablo (Another knowledgeable AMSOIL guy) said:

<i>There are probably some best MPG arguments against using ACD in a gasser and maybe a discussion about the diesel centric add pack - however there are many features about ACD that would make it a good fit for his 12V. Top end protection should be excellent and leaking by the valve seals should be minimized. </i>


JWG, there are a few issues with using oils that are designed for diesel engines:
The high antiwear additive content leads to high ash content, which

1. shortens emission components life (cat and O2 sensor "poisoning")
2. may cause unnecessary wear due to being abrasive

Oil for diesel engines may also not be frictionmodified as much as oil for gas engines, resulting in higher friction.


If you look at VW engine oil ratings, the upper limit for sulfated ash is generally listed at 1.5%.


I think I'd try that AMSOIL four stroke Marine oil that TooSlick recommends. :-)

moribundman

Beware, the <a href="http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?Cat=0&C=8"> oil forum</a> ain't pretty. If you're not a right winger, you'll be constantly fighting 3/4 or the forum members. If it weren't for the tribologists (lubrication engineers) and a few good men posting there, I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. That board keeps my blood pressure at unhealthy levels. :-P

Hex168

I've been running M1 T&amp;SUV 5w-40 but it's gone.

What do you think of a mix of EP 5w-30 and EP 15w-50, or a mix of the new 5w-30 T&amp;SUV and EP 15w-50?

moribundman

I am not a lubrication engineer and know that I can't create a better mix than a professional blender.

Why would you want to use an ACEA A1/A5 oil in the 12v? I'm also not fan of API SM oils in the 12v. It has only HTHS 3.1, which is too low. The 15W-50 will meet the required ACEA A3, but why would you run a 15W-x oil? It only means worse fuel economy and loss of power due to the oil pump having to deal with higher viscouous drag. Mixing an xW-30 and an xW-50 might not even give you a xW-40 oil, so there's very little to gain at the high temperature viscosity end.

Get yourself a nice 5W-40, Mobil, Castrol, Elf, Motul, even Valvoline. If you want to use a 5W-30 and have no oil consumption issues, use Red Line 5W-30. My engine ran never faster and smoother than with that oil.

<a href="http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_Extended_Performance.asp">Mobil EP data sheet</a>

<a href="http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf">Red Line spec sheet (PDF file)</a>

JWG

You state that high antiwear additive content leads to high ash content, which (1) shortens emission components life (cat and O2 sensor "poisoning") and (2) may cause unnecessary wear due to being abrasive. So, do I understand correctly from this statement that the antiwear additive causes unnecessary wear in petrol engines but not diesels? Diesels also use EGR's which would let the ash back into the combustion chamber; thus, would high antiwear additive content not also do the same to diesels too?

Similarly, how would a diesel's friction needs differ from that of a gasoline engine? I thought that friction modifiers generally shortened oil life span and that fewer friction modifiers would better protect engine parts over the long term. Would the fact that I run a 30 weight oil rather than a 40 weight oil not produce far less friction than any amount of additional friction modifier additive?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Additionally, that WTC does look interesting; I have never bothered to look at its specifications. However, I wonder about the rust protection additive they use to give it a Marine rating. Any thoughts on that rust additive getting recycled through the EGR?

moribundman

Non-combustible ash deposits are abrasive. In case of diesel engines, these deposits they can become trapped in the diesel particulate filters. That's why the sulfated ash levels in oil are ever dropping with newer oil specs (like API SM for gas and API CH-4). Sulfated ash deposits can cause sticking rings when the deposits build up in the ring/groove area. I don't know why this is not an issue with diesel engines. I'll find out.


Friction modifiers:

There are actually two types of friction modifiers: those that reduce friction and those that increase friction. Diesel engines may require non-friction-reduced oil due to their valve train design. Too little friction might be an issue.

Anti-wear additives, such as ZDDP are actually friction modifiers. Some friction modifiers will become active only at high pressures (EP/extreme pressure additives). Some anti-wear additives will put a sacrificial layer of organo-metallic salts on the loaded surfaces (think cam lobes).

Some oils, especially esters (or rather oils on ester base or with high ester content), may not require friction modifiers, because they have the desired properties already.

Oil life span is hardly a concern with modern, synthetic oils. Less friction modifiers does not mean an oil is superior or will last longer than one with less or no friction modifiers. For example, for an oil to meet VW 502.00, the oil has to have friction reducers.

The additive that causes oil to shear (thin out) and are the Viscosity Improvers (polymeric additives). The higher the quality of the base oil, the less Viscosity Improvers are needed. For example, Red Line does not use any polymeric additives in their 5W-30, which still achieves a rather high HTHS of 3.5 (3.6?). Actually, the only Red Line oil that uses any VIs is their 5W-40, which is a killer oil (great UOAs in VW and Audi engines) anyway.

An xW-30 (or 30) oil will flow faster due to less resistance than a xW-40 (or 40) at the same operating oil temperature. That means improved lubrication at lower oil pressure with the thinner oil. There is less strain on the oil pump and there is less viscous drag than with a thicker oil. A friction reducer will, for example reduce friction (wear and heat) on cam lobes.

I do not believe that the latest oils that bear low-SAPS (low sulfated ash) ratings like VW 504/507 are ideal in the our older engine design. While those oils will increase emission components' service life, they may not be the best choice for lowest wear in our engines. Metallurgy, manufacturing techniques and design constantly change. Compromises are still being made. ;-)

As far as it concerns my A4, I'll be looking for these things in an oil:

- synthetic base
- low VIs
- ideally around 5W-40 (5W-30 fine if HTHS =/&gt;3.5)
- HTHS 3.5 or higher
- sulfated ash around 1.2% (min 1%, max 1.5%)

moribundman

<a href="http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB4&Number=256611&Search page=2&Main=256611">thread on sulfated ash</a>

Very good info regarding oil life by Bruce:

"My rule of thumb is when TBN drops to 50% of new oil you are still OK at 75% of new oil you are getting to the end and should start a time frame for a drain. example a 10 TBN oil will be getting close at about 2.5 since motor oils generally form acid and oxidize at a non linear rate they go to heck faster the longer they are in use."

That's also why UOA is recommended. Not only can you establish a wear pattern over time and catch problems (ignition, fuel, coolant leak etc) early, but you will find out what oil change intervals work best for your engine under your driving conditions.