I agree, i just did stage 1 giac and the increase in HP is not very much.

 

I talked to the local Revo installer today,(Terry from Griffin Motorwerke who has done a lot with Revo over the years) and he told me he doesn't really like doing stage two, as the boost level it installs works that small turbo pretty hard. He also suggested get stage 1 and see if that's enough extra kick for a street car, and then later if the speed demons get a hold of me, go ahead right to stage 3 with FMIC, Bigger turbo, injectors, exhausts, TIP, etc. He told me his car is running stage 3 with the works, and he offered a test drive to really screw with my head. I don't think I should drive that car and then get stage 1 on mine. That's almost evil.

 

I do not recommend Stage 1. Why? Because the stock injectors are too small to properly tune for any increase in boost. Your oem injectors are 280cc and they are already almost maxed out. If you get a set of 380cc injectors along with Stage 2, the car will run better. If you ask any of the companies that do the actual programming, they will tell you that their Stage 1+ program will run better. Just tell him to turn down the boost a bit on Revo Stage 2.

I went through the same decision making process and I called APR, GIAC, and Revo and they all recommended the larger injectors if I had the money. I also spoke with Scott at USRT and he explained that with the Stage 1 programming, the duty cycle of the oem injectors approaches 100%. Injectors become difficult to properly control at these high duty cycles. He also recommended a larger injector set. This is probably why most people will tell you that the Stage 1+ programs feel smoother and the K04 programs are even better.

Your tuner is correct in that a Stage 1+ program with larger injectors pretty much maxes out the K03. Consider how you will be driving the vehicle. If you plan to be driving full-on 100% boost all of the time, well then you should upgrade to a more properly sized K04 turbo. Myself, I tend to only use my boost when merging onto highways. My more youthful days of driving like a donkey are behind me, lol. So, this is an important consideration.

My next mod will be to get an intercooler not so much for performance gains as much as to keep the charge temps lower which is better for the health of the engine.

 

Good points Olaf. I may discuss with Terry the possibility of bigger injectors but with a custom tweek on the boost from Revo.

 

Talked to the Revo tech one last time about this, as I take the car in Tuesday. he must be getting a kick out of all my questions by now;

Not to contradict Olaf, but he said their stage 1 program is not taxing the stock size injectors like Olaf was told. Maybe its because I will be running a 91 octane program-who knows. I trust this guy knows his stuff about his software. Anyway, he stated again that with stage 2 they recommend a bigger intercooler, down pipe, and exhaust upgrade besides $400 worth of injectors. The power you get to money spent ratio starts to get much less attractive after the $399 stage 1 program (plus a few recommended bits for reliability). To do stage 2 right, its going to cost $2500 to $3000 for another 20 horsepower or so. He told me again that they tested the stock intercooler, and the air flow through it is very poor. It is not up to the task of the increased boost and heat generated by stage 2 programming. Even for stage 1, he suggested I vent the inner fender shield like the B5 S4 had in an attempt to get more air through the side mount factory IC. I think i will try that, as it can't hurt.


I installed my upgraded boost valve today. The car was still running the old 2002 funky pre-710N valve. I noticed a definite performance improvement from the new DV. And yes, I agree, those factory clamps suck, especially when working upside down trying to remove them.

DV I am using linked below. has to be the best deal on the market. Put one on my wife's TT and it made it much smoother and responsive as well. I am not just saying this. She even noticed it without me telling her.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosch...Q5fAccessories

I also installed the NGK copper plugs and Hitachi E bolt down coil packs. Car seems to idle smoother. Car had some L series coil packs so I am glad I replaced them. I wanted to do this stuff now, and put some miles on the car before taking it in for the Revo. This way, that day, nothing else on the car changes except the software.

last things I did today was the APR snub mount and installed a nice looking pedal set. Now my foot isn't being vibrated to sleep on the pedals. The snub mount was tough to get on the alloy piece. I ended up using my press. Again, less vibration felt now at all speeds.

the pedal set I I found is actually really nice and it fit the Audi Triptronic cars close to custom. A thick rubber pad is sandwiched between the alloy and old pedal, and oval rubber nubs protrude out. Acts as a vibration reducer as well as a good grip surface. They look really nice in the car. I will have to post a photo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alumi...QQcmdZViewItem

 

If you do the math on how much a 280cc injector (oem) can flow on a turbo charged engine you come up with 190 Hp at a 98% injector duty cycle. You can play around with the numbers and use different BSFC's and duty cycles, but you aren't going to get more than 195 Hp out of the oem injectors. Go figure, that is why whenever you see an actual dyno plot of a Stage 1 car they are posting low 190's Hp figures. Now, you tell me, do you think running an injector at near 100% duty cycle is a good idea? How controllable is the flow at that rate?

If you step up to a 380cc injector you can get 225 Hp at an 85% duty cycle. The injector flow is able to be controlled and thus the program runs smoother. Most Stage 1+ cars will dyno at an actual 225-230 Hp. So, you tell me if the addtional 30-40 Hp for the cost of a set of $300 injectors (shop around) is worth it?

You can call Scott at USRT and get a set of Genesis 380's for a decent price or he will sell you TT injectors if you are hell-bent on oem Audi parts.

I just did some data logging for you this morning with the Vag-Com and my Revo Stage 2 is peaking at 20 psi and holding at about 15 psi throughout the curve. I have no other modifications other than my Genesis 380's. When I drive easy I average over 26 mpg actual (measured at the tank, not by the inaccurate trip computer). I will agree that an intercooler is in order if you plan to drive with repeated heavy boost as the intake temps will start to get a bit toasty. That being said, there are plenty of folks who have run Stage 1+ long term with no other mods and have had no problems.

If you want to play around with fuel injection calculations for yourself, try one of the on-line calculators like this one:

http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4

So, decide for yourself, but if you poll people on the boards, 90% of them will tell you that if you go Stage 1, you will be back at the table shortly to upgrade to Stage 1+. The program with the large injectors works that much better.

 

You seem to have some good facts to back up your position. Bit of a dilemma isn't it? The knowledgeable people on the forums tell me one thing, but the software technician and an experienced installer tell me something else. I guess I will have to find out for myself!

The nice thing is it won't really cost that much more to do stage 1 now, and do stage 2 later with the injectors (and maybe an IC) if I feel like I need a bit more performance. I like that you can do it that way.

Iince I have been driving a pretty slow 97 2.8 auto quattro for 7 years, even the stock A4 1.8T feels faster to me. I may just be satisfied with stage 1.

 

Yeah you can start with just Stage 1. If you are going with Revo, they are quite reasonable with their upgrade pricing, unlike some of the other companies. Here is my Stage 2 data log curve from this afternoon showing the boost levels:

 

I understand your dilemma.

I have a 2002 A4QM w/ almost 60k miles. It's all stock except for a S4 rear swaybar. For the last 1.5 years & 25k miles, I've enjoyed its handling and style, but not so much its power. My wife's 10 year old minivan was faster!

I was looking for just enough power that I didn't get passed by soccer moms at every stoplight. I wanted to maintain stock reliability. I don't plan on extended WFO driving, mostly just onramps and stoplights, which I figured would not cause much of a heat soak problem w/ the stock IC. Best I can figure, a $1000 exhaust would add noise, and only about 5-10 hp. This is my daily commuter, so most of its time is coasting along the freeway at 70mph.

Two weeks ago about I decided to do it, and Streetwerks in Palo Alto flashed APR Stage 1 (91 oct.) I drove it for a week and was mildly disappointed. The power was better, but didn't feel like $500 worth.

So I ordered TT225 injectors for it from etatuning.com for $300, which came a couple days later.

It took me about 20 minutes to install them at home (I like working on cold engine when gas is spilled), and drove 30 miles to Streetwerks, where Darren re-flashed it for free w/ APR Stage 1+ . Wow! This is a worth while change! And it got even better/smoother after a few days. The power comes on earlier and stays longer.

I can't speak to long term reliability personally, but the general consensus I have read on the boards is that this extra boost may cause the O2 sensor to fail sooner, but as long as you keep fresh syn. oil in it, and let the turbo warm up and cool down properly, the motor is pretty solid. I figured, that if this causes the stock turbo to die sooner, a KO4 turbo is not that expensive.

My advice, get the 1+.

-Tor

 

iam getting ready to go stage 1+... or 2 w/e.

unitronic stg 2 flash
rai testpipe
tt225 injectors
forge/samco t.i.p
podi boost gauge/pod

will be done at the end of this month... will report back once installed.