Oil change after break-in?
02-04-2003, 08:50 PM
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Oil change after break-in?
In my experience, an oil change is typically done after a break in period for a new engine in order to remove abrasive metal dust. For my new A4 (3.0), however, the owner's manual and dealer service say no oil change needed until 10K miles. I'd appreciate informed thoughts on this from this forum. Thanks.
02-04-2003, 09:01 PM
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There has been a lot of debate
but the general consensus is to not change before at least 5K miles. Reason being is there is a special additive that is added to the factory fill oil that aids the rings to seat properly. Properly seated rings are what is happening when your car is breaking in. If you remove the factory oil before its time, you risk conpromising the break in which can lead to lower compression, oil blowoff, etc. Just leave your oil in till 5K.
I was going to have mine changed at 5K but got lazy, so I'm just waiting till I hit the 10K mark.
I was going to have mine changed at 5K but got lazy, so I'm just waiting till I hit the 10K mark.
02-04-2003, 10:33 PM
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Here's something that has been floating around the VW and Audi forums for quite some time ...
<font color="red">Note: This information is taken from a posting in the rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled newsgroup by Randy Hubbard (raceware@wwnet.com)</font>
Q: What's the manual say about the first oil change interval???
The subject of engine oil and break-in are ALWAYS a hotly debated issue by enthusiasts. Here's what I have confirmed and/or know as a very experienced engine designer, engineer and successful racer:
1. VW-Audi uses a special "15W-40 factory fill oil" that you can NOT purchase. It is NOT the same as over-the-counter oils and has special break-in additives. I have confirmed this personally face-to-face with the lubricant engineer and lab technician at VW's Salzgitter, Germany engine assembly plant in both June/November of '96.
2. VW-Audi changed the FIRST OIL CHANGE drain interval from model year (MY) '95 to MY '96 from 5,000 miles to 7,500 miles because some customers were experiencing delayed piston ring seating due to DRAINING the "factory fill oil" BEFORE the 5,000 mile MANDATE of the Owner's Manual. The '96 Passat Owners manual I have, P.N. 962.551.3A0.21 7/95, on page 128 CLEARLY emphasizes the FIRST OIL CHANGE MUST BE PERFORMED AFTER 7,500 miles. The wording has been analyzed to the nth degree in the VW newsgroups and mail list, and no matter how anyone argues, they are unable to escape the reality that VW does NOT want you to drain the "factory fill oil" before 7,500 miles.
3. For MY '97 VW of America has returned to the 5,000 mile FIRST OIL DRAIN because of outcry from ignorant U.S. consumers. Rather than spend a fortune in time and money to *educate* U.S. consumers, VWoA just gave up and returned to the 5,000 mile FIRST drain interval, while in Germany and the rest of the World they INCREASED the oil maintenance drain interval from 15,000 KM, (9,300 miles) to 20,000 KM, (12,400 miles). At some point it becomes a waste of time and effort to attempt to change the mind of technically illiterate consumers...
In my 30 years of designing, developing and racing engines, I have learned a lot. I've spent thousands of hours dyno and track testing engines, and still work directly with the German car manufacturers and professional race teams on engine design issues. With changes in technology and engineering that many enthusiasts are unaware of, "old wives tales" live on long after their useful life has expired. I just laugh when I hear people talk about all the "junk" inside a new engine... If you could see how VW robotically builds engines in Salzgitter, Germany you would truly be amazed! These engines are meticulously clean and inspected every step of the way.
FWIW, I subscribe to VW's mandated 7,500 miles FIRST and regular oil change intervals. Today's engines are built better, the oil is better, and there is simply no advantage in attempting to "second guess" the engineers who actually test this stuff all day long for a living! As I've stated before, they didn't determine 7,500 miles in the U.S. (and 9,300 or 12,400 miles in Germany and elsewhere) to be a safe drain interval, over a cup of coffee or while having lunch. These are engineers and thay have very demanding scientific TESTS they conduct in accordance with the Society of Automotive Engineers and the American Petroleum Institute, and DIN, etc. to determine these drain intervals. Engineers and scientist must deal with FACTS not opinions...
The bottom line is pretty obvious... Myself and several others in the VW newsgroups have submitted oil drain samples at 7,500 miles to labs for analysis. Result...no surprise! In ALL cases the oil was fully suitable for continued service and showed NO unusually high contaminants or metal particulate. I will be sending in my 15K oil drain sample in a few weeks and expect the same results as the first oil drain at 7,500 miles. The doomsayers and well meaning but misinformed enthusiasts can spiel all the hogwash they want, but independent scientific lab tests confirm that VW engineers are 100% correct in their mandated 7,500 mile FIRST and regular drain intervals. No ring seal issues on my engine. In 7,500 miles I add 1/2 pint oil at MOST, sometimes NONE at all!
What you do with your vehicle is up to you. As I have pointed out in the newsgroups, many times enthusiasts create their own problems because they do not have enough technical expertise to make good judgments. The 7,500 mile FIRST oil change is a real life example. Some well meaning, but uninformed VW enthusiasts who thought they were doing the "right thing" by draining their "factory fill oil" early, have actually ended up with delayed piston ring seating and high oil consumption. Just do what the factory Owner's and Maintenance manual states and you will have a happy and long lived VW !!! VW engineers have their butts on the line for 100,000 miles and they ain't no fools!
Hope I haven't bored you to tears, but for many this is a very emotional subject and they do NOT want to be confused by facts or scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs. As an engineer I prefer facts over opinions...
The 7,500 mile FIRST OIL CHANGE recommendation was to INSURE that people didn't drain the oil early, yet some still did, and BTW some who report that they did (on the newsgroup) also complained about high oil consumption as a result. This would obviously serve to substantiate that the VW engineers REALLY do know of what they speak, and that you should abide by their service mandates, not second guess them.
You decide.
.................................................. .................................................. .................
Q: What's the manual say about the first oil change interval???
The subject of engine oil and break-in are ALWAYS a hotly debated issue by enthusiasts. Here's what I have confirmed and/or know as a very experienced engine designer, engineer and successful racer:
1. VW-Audi uses a special "15W-40 factory fill oil" that you can NOT purchase. It is NOT the same as over-the-counter oils and has special break-in additives. I have confirmed this personally face-to-face with the lubricant engineer and lab technician at VW's Salzgitter, Germany engine assembly plant in both June/November of '96.
2. VW-Audi changed the FIRST OIL CHANGE drain interval from model year (MY) '95 to MY '96 from 5,000 miles to 7,500 miles because some customers were experiencing delayed piston ring seating due to DRAINING the "factory fill oil" BEFORE the 5,000 mile MANDATE of the Owner's Manual. The '96 Passat Owners manual I have, P.N. 962.551.3A0.21 7/95, on page 128 CLEARLY emphasizes the FIRST OIL CHANGE MUST BE PERFORMED AFTER 7,500 miles. The wording has been analyzed to the nth degree in the VW newsgroups and mail list, and no matter how anyone argues, they are unable to escape the reality that VW does NOT want you to drain the "factory fill oil" before 7,500 miles.
3. For MY '97 VW of America has returned to the 5,000 mile FIRST OIL DRAIN because of outcry from ignorant U.S. consumers. Rather than spend a fortune in time and money to *educate* U.S. consumers, VWoA just gave up and returned to the 5,000 mile FIRST drain interval, while in Germany and the rest of the World they INCREASED the oil maintenance drain interval from 15,000 KM, (9,300 miles) to 20,000 KM, (12,400 miles). At some point it becomes a waste of time and effort to attempt to change the mind of technically illiterate consumers...
In my 30 years of designing, developing and racing engines, I have learned a lot. I've spent thousands of hours dyno and track testing engines, and still work directly with the German car manufacturers and professional race teams on engine design issues. With changes in technology and engineering that many enthusiasts are unaware of, "old wives tales" live on long after their useful life has expired. I just laugh when I hear people talk about all the "junk" inside a new engine... If you could see how VW robotically builds engines in Salzgitter, Germany you would truly be amazed! These engines are meticulously clean and inspected every step of the way.
FWIW, I subscribe to VW's mandated 7,500 miles FIRST and regular oil change intervals. Today's engines are built better, the oil is better, and there is simply no advantage in attempting to "second guess" the engineers who actually test this stuff all day long for a living! As I've stated before, they didn't determine 7,500 miles in the U.S. (and 9,300 or 12,400 miles in Germany and elsewhere) to be a safe drain interval, over a cup of coffee or while having lunch. These are engineers and thay have very demanding scientific TESTS they conduct in accordance with the Society of Automotive Engineers and the American Petroleum Institute, and DIN, etc. to determine these drain intervals. Engineers and scientist must deal with FACTS not opinions...
The bottom line is pretty obvious... Myself and several others in the VW newsgroups have submitted oil drain samples at 7,500 miles to labs for analysis. Result...no surprise! In ALL cases the oil was fully suitable for continued service and showed NO unusually high contaminants or metal particulate. I will be sending in my 15K oil drain sample in a few weeks and expect the same results as the first oil drain at 7,500 miles. The doomsayers and well meaning but misinformed enthusiasts can spiel all the hogwash they want, but independent scientific lab tests confirm that VW engineers are 100% correct in their mandated 7,500 mile FIRST and regular drain intervals. No ring seal issues on my engine. In 7,500 miles I add 1/2 pint oil at MOST, sometimes NONE at all!
What you do with your vehicle is up to you. As I have pointed out in the newsgroups, many times enthusiasts create their own problems because they do not have enough technical expertise to make good judgments. The 7,500 mile FIRST oil change is a real life example. Some well meaning, but uninformed VW enthusiasts who thought they were doing the "right thing" by draining their "factory fill oil" early, have actually ended up with delayed piston ring seating and high oil consumption. Just do what the factory Owner's and Maintenance manual states and you will have a happy and long lived VW !!! VW engineers have their butts on the line for 100,000 miles and they ain't no fools!
Hope I haven't bored you to tears, but for many this is a very emotional subject and they do NOT want to be confused by facts or scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs. As an engineer I prefer facts over opinions...
The 7,500 mile FIRST OIL CHANGE recommendation was to INSURE that people didn't drain the oil early, yet some still did, and BTW some who report that they did (on the newsgroup) also complained about high oil consumption as a result. This would obviously serve to substantiate that the VW engineers REALLY do know of what they speak, and that you should abide by their service mandates, not second guess them.
You decide.
.................................................. .................................................. .................
02-05-2003, 01:48 PM
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Are we saying that 3k oil changes are a farce..
as well. So, the frequent changes are a waste of time? Or, is the special manfucturing and engine building prowess of VW/Audi the main factor in extending oil changes? Interesting article. The break-in stuff makes sense. But, it seems of alot support for this is based on the so-called (I don't doubt)expertise of these VW engineers. I'd like to hear reasons why longer intervals between oil changes are feasible now. Why criticise ignorant American who just want to take care of their cars?
Ben
3.0 CVT 2003
240 miles
Ben
3.0 CVT 2003
240 miles
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